Reading Tarot in different languages

Nemia

I dislike much of the German tarot literature on the market, I confess. It seems kleinkariert to me, sorry there is no English word that conveys the meaning, it seems petty, clinging to rules and to some nearly kitschy ideal of the mysterious and meaningful. The best example for this mentality that I as born and bred German really cannot STAND is the word Legesystem - lay out system, for spread. It irks me to see the word "system". A spread is not a system that won't work the same way if you change it. A spread is just that, a spread. I really hate not only that word but the whole ponderous "am I doing that right and properly and according to the rules now?" mentality.

Then I really really dislike the mistakes made when translating Thoth to German - I wrote about it elsewhere on AT, translating Strife as Streben... a typical "false friend"... and then you read the German Thoth books and websites and they just try to make it fit... painful, painful.

Gerd Ziegler is IMO an example for the worst of German tarot writing, just hate his tone of voice. Banzhaf is better, and his astrology work enriches his books.

I also admit freely that I really hate Albideuter's German texts. He made a wonderful website with a huge amount of work - and then spoils it all by wordiness, false irony, horrible grammar and a lot of hot air in his sentences. Whenever I read his texts, I tear out my hair and cut words, make his often insightful or interesting texts more concise, less "gebildet". You're not Thomas Mann, don't go there!!! (I'm horrible, I know.)

I have the same problem with old academic texts in German. I had my academic education in a non-German country and I'm spoilt forever ;-)

But there's simply no German Mary Greer/Rachel Pollack/Nina Lee Braden - or add whichever innovative tarot author comes to your mind. Or is there and I didn't notice? I'd be happy to find one. If there is, please give me the name! ETA: I found Anna K.s little book for her deck very nicely written, clear and un-pompous and YES there must be good German tarot authors.

One thing I do appreciate about the German tarot world: it's NOT RWS-fixated like many non-Europeans seem to be. Lenormand, Kipper and other card systems have blossomed in the German speaking countries, we also have different playing cards, and RWS is (or was until some year ago) just one traditions among many. France, Italy, Switzerland, Spain, wherever - they all have their own rich playing card and cartomancy traditions.

I started out with Thoth and wasn't even aware of the dominant position RWS has for so many. AT was quite an eye opener for me LOL. I learned to appreciate RWS only here.

I live in three languages and use them in my tarot work, too. Most of the material I read is English. I write my journal in German and think in German. And if I read for friends, it's in Hebrew. At work, it's the same. I read mostly English articles, I think and write in German and teach in Hebrew. Hebrew is obviously a great help for kabbalah.

For me, it's no longer a problem, although I'm no longer really at home in any language, but tarot is the language of images, and they transcend languages. I bought the Spanish version of the World Spirit tarot although I don't know Spanish (only learned French and Latin at school and that's some years ago!!!), the words are not important. The pictures speak.
 

Farzon

Nemia said:
I dislike much of the German tarot literature on the market, I confess. It seems kleinkariert to me, sorry there is no English word that conveys the meaning, it seems petty, clinging to rules and to some nearly kitschy ideal of the mysterious and meaningful. The best example for this mentality that I as born and bred German really cannot STAND is the word Legesystem - lay out system, for spread. It irks me to see the word "system". A spread is not a system that won't work the same way if you change it. A spread is just that, a spread. I really hate not only that word but the whole ponderous "am I doing that right and properly and according to the rules now?" mentality.

Then I really really dislike the mistakes made when translating Thoth to German - I wrote about it elsewhere on AT, translating Strife as Streben... a typical "false friend"... and then you read the German Thoth books and websites and they just try to make it fit... painful, painful.

Gerd Ziegler is IMO an example for the worst of German tarot writing, just hate his tone of voice. Banzhaf is better, and his astrology work enriches his books.

I also admit freely that I really hate Albideuter's German texts. He made a wonderful website with a huge amount of work - and then spoils it all by wordiness, false irony, horrible grammar and a lot of hot air in his sentences. Whenever I read his texts, I tear out my hair and cut words, make his often insightful or interesting texts more concise, less "gebildet". You're not Thomas Mann, don't go there!!! (I'm horrible, I know.)

I have the same problem with old academic texts in German. I had my academic education in a non-German country and I'm spoilt forever ;-)

But there's simply no German Mary Greer/Rachel Pollack/Nina Lee Braden - or add whichever innovative tarot author comes to your mind. Or is there and I didn't notice? I'd be happy to find one. If there is, please give me the name! ETA: I found Anna K.s little book for her deck very nicely written, clear and un-pompous and YES there must be good German tarot authors.

One thing I do appreciate about the German tarot world: it's NOT RWS-fixated like many non-Europeans seem to be. Lenormand, Kipper and other card systems have blossomed in the German speaking countries, we also have different playing cards, and RWS is (or was until some year ago) just one traditions among many. France, Italy, Switzerland, Spain, wherever - they all have their own rich playing card and cartomancy traditions.

I started out with Thoth and wasn't even aware of the dominant position RWS has for so many. AT was quite an eye opener for me LOL. I learned to appreciate RWS only here.

I live in three languages and use them in my tarot work, too. Most of the material I read is English. I write my journal in German and think in German. And if I read for friends, it's in Hebrew. At work, it's the same. I read mostly English articles, I think and write in German and teach in Hebrew. Hebrew is obviously a great help for kabbalah.

For me, it's no longer a problem, although I'm no longer really at home in any language, but tarot is the language of images, and they transcend languages. I bought the Spanish version of the World Spirit tarot although I don't know Spanish (only learned French and Latin at school and that's some years ago!!!), the words are not important. The pictures speak.
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I'm so with you on that! I like Banzhaf's Book "Schlüsselworte zum Tarot" because it includes interesting spreads, but his fixed meanings for the cards in certain situations and the instructions on how to read the spreads are the essence of "kleinkariert".

Speaking of academic texts, they are the same.
 

Serenia

Even though my native language is German, a good portion of my tarot material is in English. And I actually prefer buying English-language tarot decks because the German card titles feel rather unwieldy to me. As a result, though, I feel I'm not fluent enough to read for others - neither in German nor in English... :|

Nemia said:
The best example for this mentality that I as born and bred German really cannot STAND is the word Legesystem - lay out system, for spread.
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Ah! I have asked myself for years whether there is a good German translation for "spread". I never found one, so I've simply been using the word "spread" in my tarot notes, even though I write everything else in German. But yeah, "Legesystem"... no! :p I am completely with you on this!

Nemia said:
But there's simply no German Mary Greer/Rachel Pollack/Nina Lee Braden - or add whichever innovative tarot author comes to your mind. Or is there and I didn't notice? I'd be happy to find one. If there is, please give me the name!
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When I began my tarot journey, I really liked the book "Im Dialog mit den Bildern des Tarot" by Lilo Schwarz. It's been a while since I have last read it and I can't really remember how "kleinkariert" or not her general explanations are, but I do remember that she goes through all the cards individually, giving a list with questions to ask oneself in order to approach and understand the card. She encourages the reader to develop their own relationship with the cards instead of relying on hard and fast rules. The book is solely RWS-based, though.
 

Nemia

How kind of you all - I was afraid I'd be torn to pieces for my arrogance. Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, it was simply the two little words "Gerd" and "Ziegler" that pushed me over the edge....

I use the word "Auslage" for spread, although maybe "Bild" like in Patience games would be nicer? Auslage, layout, is the most pragmatic description I could think of.

Thank you for the name Lilo Schwarz - I'll have a look at that book. I'd really like to find a German author I feel comfortable with. There are so many books about tarot now - it's nearly impossible to read them all.
 

Farzon

Nemia said:
I use the word "Auslage" for spread, although maybe "Bild" like in Patience games would be nicer? Auslage, layout, is the most pragmatic description I could think of.
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Is really difficult in German... talking about Tarot in German, I mostly switch to English with the terms. And spread is the most difficult term of them all, I think.

Spread translates Aufstrich which is nonsense (like peanut butter or what?!),
Auslage to me is a show case and Legesystem sounds awfully mechanical. "Bild", picture, captures the aesthetical dimension but not the meaning.... arghl... [emoji37]
 

Nemia

Well, to spread means ausbreiten, verteilen - you can spread wings, a rumour, a mantle and even peanut butter ;-)

In Hebrew, I use the word פריסה which I think is precise, and in German, Auslage - until I'll find something better. I gave my Hebrew tarot books away, what a pity, I'd like to know how it was translated "professionally".

In many German books, Emperor and Empress are called Herrscher and Herrscherin (ruler) - personally, I prefer the more specific Emperor/Kaiser, it has such a medieval sound, reminds of the old and complex antagonism of pope and emperor, and it also reminds me of the children's verse Kaiser, König, Edelmann - Bürger, Bauer, Bettelmann (Emperor, King, Aristocrat - Burgher, Farmer, Beggar) that evokes the feudal world in six words.

I don't know who translated Emperor as Herrscher (ruler), and would love to know why. Maybe the more generic term suits Hierophant or High Priest better. But I like the historical sound of Emperor and Pope, Empress and Papesse.
 

ana luisa

Le Fanu said:
But there's just something about the way tarot and the brain is hard-wired. Things come to me in flashes, in English; expressions, sayings, colloquialisms, nuances. Then I have to stop myself and translate and it feels stilted to me. It's never quite as thorough.
There is nothing in my second language (Portuguese) which I cannot express but I've now got to the stage that if a querent's command of English is very good, I ask if they mind doing it in English because I know they'll get a better reading. It's a shame about this as I'd have a much better chance of charging for readings locally if I could give good readings in my second language...
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Yes! Like you I speak both English and Portuguese (my native language) and need to give readings to my Brazilian friends in English! I guess it has to do with the stiffness of Portuguese as a language. And it being so convoluted... Besides, as you said, the expressions, especially the idioms and adages get completely lost when translated. I remember once reading for an American friend, I got the 10 of Swords and immediately thought of "morrendo na praia", an idiom meaning you fought, swam, braved the ocean just to die at the shore. While in the zone, translations and explanations are REALLY counter productive ...
 

Lareia

Nemia said:
I dislike much of the German tarot literature on the market, I confess. It seems kleinkariert to me, sorry there is no English word that conveys the meaning, it seems petty, clinging to rules and to some nearly kitschy ideal of the mysterious and meaningful. The best example for this mentality that I as born and bred German really cannot STAND is the word Legesystem - lay out system, for spread. It irks me to see the word "system". A spread is not a system that won't work the same way if you change it. A spread is just that, a spread. I really hate not only that word but the whole ponderous "am I doing that right and properly and according to the rules now?" mentality.
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Legesystem, really? I didn't even know it was called that in German. :D I agree, it sounds awful. If I had to call it something in German, I might go with something like (Lege-)Muster... which sounds weird too, to me, but at least it's not as strict-sounding!
 

delinfrey

I do sometimes struggle reading in my national language (Estonian) - my partner is German and our home language is English, I've been working in an English-speaking environment for more than 10 years and done most of my Tarot work in English as well. Face to face, most sitters are Estonian, though, so I just take more time to put together a story before opening my mouth. Estonian tends to be quite the meta-language, meaning very few words convey tons of meaning, so that is never really the problem. But shifting gears in your brain really could be.
Fun note- I went through my book of shadows and noticed that most of the occult, systematic stuff (like Kabbala, Enochian or witchcraft a la Waite) was written in English, though nature-attuned things like runes, tree correspondances and herbal knowledge is written in Estonian. That has not been a conscious choice. I think that the compartments in your brain are just more attuned to a certain type of information - and German is particularly difficult for a free-flow intuitive talk (at least in my case).
I have told my sitters that i will take some time in silence and that it is not ominous, I am just going through the different narratives in my brain and then expressing the final one.

PS- what has also worked for me is choosing the right deck (but that might be very personal). Perhaps you can find a deck/reading style that flows well with German? For example, Sacred Rose works very well for me in Estonian; Lenormand tends to work really well in German; old-style decks tend to work very well in French. I don't know why that is, maybe they just link to the right compartment in my messy brain!
 

ana luisa

PS- what has also worked for me is choosing the right deck (but that might be very personal). Perhaps you can find a deck/reading style that flows well with German? For example, Sacred Rose works very well for me in Estonian; Lenormand tends to work really well in German; old-style decks tend to work very well in French. I don't know why that is, maybe they just link to the right compartment in my messy brain!
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This is SOOO neat. And true. Makes you wonder how images and words play inside our brain ;) Like a multi-cultural playground with kids speaking different languages but getting their messages across !
 
Mari El Republic story in NY Times Tarot deck dilemma, what would you do?