The fool's journey -- men only??

I'm happy to accept that perhaps I mininterpreted what was said; I would be much happier if that were true than for the alternative to be true.

But I don't see what was intended by all these statements if my interpretation is incorrect. It seems that what is being said is that there is a certain way women write about tarot, and this type of writing is so common that it is the norm, and that male readers do not have any resources which are inclusive of their perspectives. That's what I read, and I find such a claim absurd, and certainly hope it is not what was intended. If it indeed is not what is being said here, then what exactly is?

Moongold said:

Dear TheoMo ~

You and I both share a Catholic background I think? My greatest role models as a child were the female saints, but the one that had the most influence was Teresa of Avila. She was the most intelligent, witty and amazing woman. She was mystic as well.

Therese of Lisieux was my confirmation saint but I really preferred the Great Teresa. Catherine of Siena was another one I admired.

As a teenager Simone de Beauvoir was a tremendous influence. I read all her biographies and novels and followed her in the press. Vera Brittain and Winifred Holtby I also admired. Brittain's Testimony ...... biographies, I gobbled up. Radclyffe Hall and women of her ilk also were important to me.

Henry Handel Richardson is an Australian author I loved as a teenager. She had to pretend she was a man to get published though.

For me today, the greatest poets are still women. They have a unique voice but I have always loved the poetic voices of women. I've discovered another American one recently called Joy Harjo.

Click to expand...

Moongold,

thanks for these names! I am familiar with the name of Teresa of Avila but know little about her. Hildegard von Bingen is also a name that comes to mind as I read your post, someone who I read about long ago but whose life I never delved into.

Funny that you mention Catholocism -- I was baptised Catholic, and I have not considered myself Catholic for a long time, but I have always felt that Catholic Christianity has always made an attempt to provide some influence of the feminine. Carl Jung wrote about this as well, how the adoration of the Virgin was in many respects unique amongst Christian forms of worship, and how it tended to balance the male role models provided by Jesus and the apostles. Of course, there are certainly less progressive aspects of Catholocism as well, but when Jung was writing I think there may have been some hope about the institution of the Church in ways that have disappeared as of late...

TheoMo

noby said:

If it indeed is not what is being said here, then what exactly is?

Click to expand...

You tell me. No one else seems to have come to the conclusions that you have. The only person throwing terms such as 'misogynist' around are you. Perhaps you are projecting your hatred of men upon me? Whatever, that is your problem and I will not make it mine. I am putting you on my 'ignore' list because you are getting tiresome.

Yes, because I see misogynistic undertones in what you write, that must mean I Hate Men. And because no one else on a forum of people who avoid conflict at all costs would speak up and risk a confrontation does not mean I'm the only one who read those undertones in your posts. It means I'm the only one that risked conflict and risked being "wrong" to flush out a potentially disturbing undercurrent of -ism and see what was up with that.

I stepped forward offering the possibility I had misread your intentions and meanings, and asked for a clarification. I find your refusal to offer even the most meager alternative to my interpretation very unimpressive. But of course, if you're putting me on Ignore, there's really not much I can do. Not that this was ever going to get anywhere, given your attitude. I can assure you I don't find you any more pleasant to interact with than you find me to be, but I can set that aside to clear up something centering on an issue I find to be a very important and troublesome in our culture right now. But I'm satisfied to drop it at this point--what was important to me was at least to say something about it. That's been done. So if you're going to drop it, I will do so as well.

TheoMo said:

Funny that you mention Catholocism -- I was baptised Catholic, and I have not considered myself Catholic for a long time, but I have always felt that Catholic Christianity has always made an attempt to provide some influence of the feminine. Carl Jung wrote about this as well, how the adoration of the Virgin was in many respects unique amongst Christian forms of worship, and how it tended to balance the male role models provided by Jesus and the apostles. Of course, there are certainly less progressive aspects of Catholocism as well, but when Jung was writing I think there may have been some hope about the institution of the Church in ways that have disappeared as of late...

TheoMo

Click to expand...

We get into very interesting territory, here TheoMo. . There is much debate about the Jesus/Mary story. Some say it should be the Jesus/Magdalen story.

Some parts of Catholicism acknowledge very openly now that the Church plagiarized many pagan and classical myths. There are parallels to Jesus/Mary in Isis/Osirus and in Buddhism (can't remember one of Buddha's names but his spouse was Mara, I think.

Jung did think that Mary humanized the church patriarchy - I remember reading that somewhere - but I just don't know whether the church was in its own way acting out this classical story or whether there were more self-serving political motives. It does not really matter.

It is interesting to discuss Tarot and gender in this context. The Egyptians attributed many roles to various versions of their deities, but I am not sure that they reassigned gender. Their women mythological figures were much more powerful than ours. In Tarot the "feminine" archetypes are particularly powerful as well. II High Priestess, III Empress; VIII Justice; XI Strength; XIV Temperance; XVII Star; XXI World. I know the last one is debatable . I also see XIII Death as feminine. Somehow I feel much more comfortable with seeing Death in this way. She holds both mercy and promise.

As life progresses, my understanding of power changes. No matter who one is (male or female), power always lies within. Whatever your situation you can transcend it through your own power. The Tarot archetypes help us understand this.

Moongold

tarotbear said:

There is no 'The Knight of Cups represents your Knight-in-shining-armour' or 'The HP represents your secret female lover' kind of crap in this manuscript. I felt that most tarot decks and books are written by heterosexual women for other heterosexual women and this is my response to it.

Click to expand...

Of course, the way to get around this is simply to rely on the symbolism and iconography in the card. Mind you, if Barbara Cartland ever designs a deck her imagery and undoubtedly match her romanticism. Actually, I think she may have passed on now so that will never happen.

Tarotbear, I do think your comment that most tarot decks and books are written by heterosexual women for other heterosexual women was a little sweeping. Admittedly I buy decks to suit my own taste. My favourites are eclectic - some are designed by men and women in collaboration, some are historic and some are simply designed by strong women. Rachel Pollack is transgender. Marguerite Petersen is simply strongly feminist but her work could appeal to anyone. The Fey was drawn by a woman but she worked in collaboration with a man, and her work simply crosses gender boundaries.

I am a gay woman but I don't own the Gay Tarot. I've not looked at it yet and there are probably other decks I would buy ahead of it just because I like a mix of gender archetypes, having both in my personality. I think it is wonderful that it exists and one day I will buy it but there are others I would prefer just now. In its own way the Gay Tarot is also exclusive and I'm not ready for that just yet. However I speak carefully because I have not actually looked at it. I wouldn't buy the Baseball Tarot either for the same reasons, and I can't make head or tale of baseball. Mind you, if someone made a cricket tarot deck I might be interested .

On a concluding note, I used to be a librarian and we loved Barbara Cartland novels. On a quiet night in the staff room we would take it in terms to mime the last pages of some of them and would end the day in peals of laughter. But we were all uncouth representations of romantic womanhood . I am sure Cartland herself might have smiled graciously at us, even so.


Moongold

*Moderator's Note*

Whilst a spirited debate can well be part of an intense discussion, please avoid the off-topic & the personal asides which tend to disrupt the flow of the subject & leave a dubious impression on the part of viewers.

This is a *friendly reminder* in an effort to avoid more invasive moderating action.

Your understanding & cooperation are greatly appreciated & thanks very much!

~MeeWah
Co-Moderator, Talking Tarot

Edited to add clarification.

Speaking as a viewer & also from seeing exerpts of the manuscript, I see Tarotbear's book as primariy intended to be a discussion of Tarot reading & interpretation from the male view, & not intended to bash female authors nor necessarily to cast aspersions on the so-called 'feminine view'.

Since most of the more contemporary books on Tarot do seem to be by predominantly female authors, that should be an interesting & even refreshing viewpoint. I find many of his takes to be insightful & to not only provide a glimpse into the 'male' mind, but to offer additional possible interpretations of the cards.

Btw: I am not very familiar with Tarot books in general since most of the few Tarot books I have moreorless read or dipped into have been by men--largely because they were what I found:

The Pictorial Key to Tarot - Arthur E. Waite
Tarot of the Bohemians - Papus
The Tarot - Joseph Maxwell (based on the Marseilles tradition)

I'm very happy to move on, and don't want to de-rail this thread any further, but I do want to clarify what seems to be a misunderstanding of what I was saying.

I don't find the idea of tarotbear's book, or its content (as expressed in the excerpts here) to come across as misogynistic. What bothers me in this vein are tarotbear's comments to this thread, and the way he presents his book here. As I said above, I may have misinterpreted what was implied by tb's comments, but no one has yet to explain what was meant by them if it was not something along the lines of what I describe.

And yes, a lot of tarot books are written by women. That's certainly a fair claim to make. But the claim that was made was not simply that, but that most of these books are written in a very superificial way, interpreting the cards as various indicators of potential romance, rather than in spiritual and deeper ways. That has not at all been my experience; mine has been that most female authors write about the tarot in a very broad and in-depth way which is also very gender-inclusive. I do not see any ground for which to make such a stereotypical and demeaning claim about women authors in general or in the realm of tarot.

Moongold said:

There is much debate about the Jesus/Mary story. Some say it should be the Jesus/Magdalen story.

Click to expand...

yes, this has become especially popular these days. I remember reading "holy blood holy grail" years ago and thinking, "what an interesting hypothesis." Of course, back then you were crazy if you questioned official religion, but now the Da Vinci Code has made such questions common place. I wonder if the resonance of the Da Vinci Code with the public at large indicates a more general acceptance of an equality in masculine/feminine spiritual energies that has only recently emerged? I think someone like Jung would say that its popularity would indicate a more subconscious understanding of the balance between masculine and feminine.

Moongold said:

In Tarot the "feminine" archetypes are particularly powerful as well. II High Priestess, III Empress; VIII Justice; XI Strength; XIV Temperance; XVII Star; XXI World. I know the last one is debatable . I also see XIII Death as feminine. Somehow I feel much more comfortable with seeing Death in this way. She holds both mercy and promise.

Click to expand...

The feminine archetypes are quite powerful in Tarot. I like the way Crowley talked about Temperance, as an alchemical mixing of male and feminine. It reminds me of Hindu conceptions of Shiva and his parter Shakti (also called Kali or Durga), who combine to form the deity known as Ardhanarishvara, a being that is both feminine and masculine, a fusion of the two elements that is greater than the sum of its parts.

Death as feminine -- I find that comforting as well for some reason

Edited: here are some links to sites that talk about Ardhanarishvara, in case people are interested:

http://community-2.webtv.net/Toomuwik/Ardhanarishvara/

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/article/ardhanarishvara

http://www.artic.edu/artaccess/AA_India/pages/India_4.shtml