golden dawn influence

HOLMES

diana says
quote
On a personal note, my hunger is satisfied with the Marseille tradition, because it reaches much further than a 19th/20th Century secret society which based many of its teachings on some obscure document of unknown origin (at that time at least) (Cipher Manuscript) and full of intestinal disputes by people vying for personal power.
quote

i think that is a statement that is lacking in opening up one own eyes to the golden dawn itself.
the rider waite, version of the golden dawn is so based in the marsielles based on what i read in the qabalistic tarot by robert wang (who also compares the thoth deck as well ) to the marsielles.

the differnces besides the switch of strength with justice, which i feel personally is because of the hebrew letter meanings serpent. and that doesn't fit justice but the kundalini of the strenght card.

the meanings behind the pips although they were changed by smiths pictures take are the same.

the golden dawn i think took what is , and added in by clarifying the qabbalah, astrology meanings behind the tarot.

for an organization that used some obscure docuement (which was mainly written by mathers himself it is widely believed) and full of power struggles its influence over the thoth, the rider, paul foster case and all their clones and their decks that that have any influence on them but are not clones is very powerful.
but know that they did come from the marsielles deck.

i think it isn't a fault of the organization itself but the individuals in the deck , crowley, waite, and this was a result of not of power i think but of belief and logic and reasonsing that was the difference between them.
(althougth people were mad when crowley got up to a certain level and got the boot from the order for it was done by one member and not the council ).

one can go only go so far back in tradition as for its feasiblity in today modern society. the bible for example has outgrown its usefulness in some regards but then again it was written by man, guided by man what they wanted to teach the people.

and so it is with the tarot,

marsielles might be the old testement, and gd style decks the new testment.

the answer lies here in our hearts, and i feel in my heart that though the order of the golden dawn was short lived and had disputes, (which orgnaniation has not had disputes ) what they achieved not only tarot wise but magick and knowledge wise was very incredible.

i come from a modern and somewhat traditional approach they have to meet somewhere, the tarotist has to see that if they are to keep an open mind, study everything about the tarot, and travle into advanced level of tarot knowledge.
(i am not advanced but just barely getting started on my journey).

it is my hope that i see a new stage of tarot study by the felloship of the silver night or something like that if only to see things updated, and fixed like the 7 outer planets added.

yet we will not see these things in the rider which now and forever can't be changed like the marsilles and thoth can't
 

lark

Holmes you are so much more knowledgable than I am about all these things.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

I think of it very simply, that the Marseilles, Thoth and Rider Waite decks are what is left after all the chaff is burned away.
The gold, so to speak, the essence of the secrets.
It's shinning right in our eyes for us to understand.
 

kwaw

HOLMES said:

the differnces besides the switch of strength with justice, which i feel personally is because of the hebrew letter meanings serpent. and that doesn't fit justice but the kundalini of the strenght card.



Your opinion fits a more Crowley type viewpoint. Waite was a mystic Christian, and of the same school of thought of Dion Fortune, that east and west don't mix. I think the switch was more based on western astrology than anything to do with kundalini from Waites point of view. The switch he alternately agreed and disagreed with, and made himself out to be a recipient of great secrets that we altermately can't deny, but in respect of any forthcoming revelation must find at the least irrelevant [if out of respect for his achievements we leave suspicions behind].

for an organization that used some obscure docuement (which was mainly written by mathers himself it is widely believed)

Macenzie or westcott maybe, not Mathers, though he maybe certainly had a hand in expanding the ciphers into ritual [not forgetting, as is common, the artistry of his wife, Moina].

and full of power struggles ..... and this was a result of not of power i think but of belief and logic and reasonsing that was the difference between them.

Powers of logic and reasoning were common to both, belief was the fundamental differnce?

one go only go so far back in tradition as for its feasiblity in today modern society. the bible for example has outgrown its usefulness in some regards but then again it was written by man, guided by man what they wanted to teach the people.

and so it is with the tarot,

marsielles might be the old testement, and gd style decks the new testment.

A powerful and disturbing statement and analogy. The bible has outgrown its usefullness? The GD tarot is as to the Marseille as the OT to the NT? Phew!

Howabout tea leafs and star signs are as sufi to islam, dice and yarrow sticks to hindhuism and buddhism? Or divination and superstition to spirit and religion?

the answer lies here in our hearts, and i feel in my heart that though the order of the golden dawn was short lived and had disputes, (which orgnaniation has not had disputes ) what they achieved not only tarot wise but magick and knowledge wise was very incredible.

What did they collect? The hebrew alphabet, agrippa, kircher, the SY, dee, tarot, theosophism, masonism, the ToL, chritianity, judaism, hinduism, buddhism, zohar, astrology, grimoires, etc. I agree, their synthesism of all the different strands was incredible, and I think inspiring and valuable.

yet we will not see these things in the rider which now and forever can't be changed like the marsilles and thoth can't

The syncretic and/or exegesis of all three is ongoing and leading to all sorts of varying opinions and adaption. The change is constant, there is no can't. Sustained by the unchanging spirit, all life, opinion and knowledge is forever changing. Letters, words, images may seem in our short lifetime to remain constant, but even in our short span, their interpretation and meaning change from one generation to the next.

Wicked;)
Kwaw
 

Rusty Neon

Divinatory meanings; Tarot de Marseille

HOLMES said:
(1) the rider waite, version of the golden dawn is so based in the marsielles based on what i read in the qabalistic tarot by robert wang (who also compares the thoth deck as well ) to the marsielles.

....

(2) the meanings behind the pips although they were changed by smiths pictures take are the same.
...

the golden dawn i think took what is , and added in by clarifying the qabbalah, astrology meanings behind the tarot.


(1) Yes, it's true that the RWS (and the Thoth, even more so) use various of the imagery of the major arcana and various of the pip placements and non-scenic imagery of the minor arcana of the Tarot de Marseille (TdM). Even so, Waite/Smith's (and Crowley/Harris's) imprint on the major and minor arcana of the RWS (and Thoth) is unmistakeable.

(2) The pips of the TdM don't have any instrinic meanings, so it's not quite exact to say that the RWS pictures reflect the "same" divinatory meanings as the TdM. A TdM pip has whatever meaning the card reader wishes to give to the pip, based on the reader's particular interpretation approach, e.g. numerology, suit meanings, colours, and/or non-scenic imagery.

There were some traditional, pre-GD divinatory meanings (DMs) for taromancy prior to the Golden Dawn, e.g., the School of Etteilla. However, _even to that extent_, you can't say that the RWS pictures follow TdM DMs. This is because the meanings that the RWS pictures illustrate are a combination of GD-invented DMs (based on planet, sign, Qabalah or based on invented or Etteilla DMs that are back-derived to planet, sign, Qabalah) , Etteilla DMs and other DMs invented by Waite.
 

Rusty Neon

HOLMES said:
marsielles might be the old testement, and gd style decks the new testment.

the answer lies here in our hearts, and i feel in my heart that though the order of the golden dawn was short lived and had disputes, (which orgnaniation has not had disputes ) what they achieved not only tarot wise but magick and knowledge wise was very incredible.

...

it is my hope that i see a new stage of tarot study by the felloship of the silver night or something like that if only to see things updated, and fixed like the 7 outer planets added.

yet we will not see these things in the rider which now and forever can't be changed like the marsilles and thoth can't

EVEN IF we accept your proposition that, for tarot to be meaningful, tarot has to be linked to an astrological and qabalistic system and that such a system must now be updated to include the modern planets, this doesn't make the Golden Dawn system and the various GD-based divinatory meanings of the RWS cards obsolete. Various modern day astrologers accept that the outer planets must be accounted for, but their effect isn't necessary as strong as the old planets'. Thus, both a GD system and a system to account for the new planets can co-exist.

Further, the TdM can't be outmoded by such an updated system, nor is it outmoded by the GD system. This is because the TdM doesn't have any instrinsic qalabistic and astrological system behind it, as opposed to the GD, RWS and Thoth decks. The TdM can be used perfectly fine without any such system or can be used with whatever such system the card reader chooses to employ.
 

Vincent

Re: Divinatory meanings; Tarot de Marseille

Rusty Neon said:
There were some traditional, pre-GD divinatory meanings (DMs) for taromancy prior to the Golden Dawn, e.g., the School of Etteilla. However, _even to that extent_, you can't say that the RWS pictures follow TdM DMs. This is because the meanings that the RWS pictures illustrate are a combination of GD-invented DMs (based on planet, sign, Qabalah or based on invented or Etteilla DMs that are back-derived to planet, sign, Qabalah) , Etteilla DMs and other DMs invented by Waite. [/B]


There is an excellent article detailing the origin of divinatory meanings by James Revak, if anyone is interested.

It can be found here;

http://www.villarevak.org/emw/emw_1.htm


Vincent
 

Rusty Neon

Re: Re: Divinatory meanings; Tarot de Marseille

Vincent said:
There is an excellent article detailing the origin of divinatory meanings by James Revak, if anyone is interested.

It can be found here;

http://www.villarevak.org/emw/emw_1.htm

Yes, that's an excellent resource which I refer people to often. It compares the divinatory meanings from: Waite's Pictorial Key to the Tarot; the Etteilla School; and Mathers.

Caution: The Mathers' divinatory meanings given at James Revak's site are not the Golden Dawn divinatory meanings. The GD meanings can be found in the GD manuscript _Book T_ which can be found in books and also online at http://www.private.org.il/GD/Book-T.html

It would have been useful if James' comparative compendium also included the meanings from _Book T_, as those meanings influenced Waite and the RWS deck.
 

HOLMES

it may of been more astrology based the reasons for his switch, alas to my knowledge he never made it public hence it is up to us to reason it out for ourselves. for me i thought about this reason oh about a day before i wrote it regarding the kundalini and serpent meaning of the hebrew letter.

yes it has been said when the person went into the room to make the tarot and came out with the deck that was it was already prefabricated and then stashed in the room as to appear it was made then and there in a revealing matter. regarding mackenzie and westcott i must admit my golden dawn knowledge doesn't go that deep.

i was reading the tarot symbolism , and the old testment , new testment was used in the book to describe cycles of thought in man , not specifically related to the tarot.
yet if i was to use the father, son and spirit analogy from the book
the marsielles was the father, the golden dawn, and waite and thoth and its offshots would be the son, and the spirit would be the future of what we created.

Howabout tea leafs and star signs are as sufi to islam, dice and yarrow sticks to hindhuism and buddhism? Or divination and superstition to spirit and religion?

i would concur with the statement of their synthesism

regarding the change, i dont think change can be applied to the waite smith designs or the thoth designs,
alas they have tried changin the colours in the rider (but surpisingly enough i like those changes )
and i am wiating for them to try that with the toth.
 

HOLMES

actually that wasn't my propositon that tarot has to be meaningful by being linked to astrological and qabalistic system.
but my propostion is as one starts to understand the deeper reasons behind the tarot they come to study the astrology, qabbalah or they decide that isn't for me and leave it alone.
what golden dawn did with the fixing of ettila levi assocations for example and other people work was still awesome.
regarding the outer planets they may be as strong in a chart as an inner planet , but as energy that effect the entire world it is important. for each movement into a new house by pluto for the masses makes a big change in the consciousness in the world.
so in that sense , that is how for me the outer planets can represent the elemental signs of air fool uranus, neptune hanged man, and fire pluto judgement.
but i agree tht an older system and a new system can agree. example would be how they relate new rulership with old rulership by putting the two planets ruling one sign in some cases in astrology.
it is the decanates that has to be changed in order to incorpate the outher planets. and there has been differnt ways for that happen.

(what is the tdm? so i can share my thoughts on the two paragraphs using that short initials)
 

Rusty Neon

holmes .. TdM stands for Tarot de Marseille.