The outfit of Mr. 2 of Pentacles

ravenest

And do what? You mean since it's secret?

No ... I mean ; how do you see that ?

Your " I'm positive I recognise a lot of the secret orders in the cards." seems to suggest there are signs of (images of, hints, codes ? ? ? ) ' the secret orders' ( several different ones ? ... a secret order ? ) in the deck.

Do you see certain things in different secret orders that are the same ... and are represented in the cards? Or there are signs or emblems of different secret orders in the cards , or ... ?

I am unclear on what you meant, and HOW you saw it.
 

Sandalwood

Waite correctly believed that Tarot was not 'historically' based on Qabalah, but there is ample evidence (beyond mere coincidence) that his deck was in conformity with the Qabalah based Golden Dawn Tarot structure. However, I do not believe that the red of the Two of Pentacles derives from Sephirah 2, so the correspondence does not matter.

This thread is raising more and more questions ;) Thank you for sharing your knowledge. And do not all systems aiming for enlightenment detract from other systems in some shape or form. So parts of it being present wouldn't be surprising.
 

Sandalwood

Like I said, it's all conjecture, and I tried to interpret it as I see it. Did my best, although I did say I agreed with LRichard about the validity of the colors. Not only was the RWS not colored according to the appropriate color scales, but we wouldn't be able to see them now even if they were (unless it would be on a Pam A?). The RWS is, as Waite's rival once said about the medieval decks, "hopelessly corrupt." Anyway, the connection to Mars comes from red and the phallus, just a guess on my part.

On the other hand, the colors that should be there, those for Jupiter and Capricorn, aren't there. So who knows?

It's an interesting connection. Mars is super masculine of course and so is a phallus, so I can see that link. I don't think astrology is a main guideline in tarot though, but an addition. I'm again not sure how this fits in historically, but the elements are the most important in my opinion, but I should look that up.
 

Sandalwood

The planet Mars has a reddish colour :)

Thats the association I usually make. Thence, Martial gods relate blood - war, etc.

' ... the red of Mars is physical, violent and gross. " - 777

Okay, yes, using the colours of the planets. But do the planets actually are a main feature in tarot or merely an extra? (More research, lol)

No ... I mean ; how do you see that ?

Your " I'm positive I recognise a lot of the secret orders in the cards." seems to suggest there are signs of (images of, hints, codes ? ? ? ) ' the secret orders' ( several different ones ? ... a secret order ? ) in the deck.

Do you see certain things in different secret orders that are the same ... and are represented in the cards? Or there are signs or emblems of different secret orders in the cards , or ... ?

I am unclear on what you meant, and HOW you saw it.


It's not so much the symbols separately, but the whole process. What it's about in my opinion is alchemy; combining all in a certain way to get the gold (not that literal, although when combined right you can manifest it in reality). That's perfectly depicted in the different suits (which are symbols) and the grand arcana. It's shown step by step. Which is generally what all these systems do, describing the process of enlightenment, but also showing the keys to it. Colour & astrology are additions in my opinion, something to add to the recipe. You can see the Templars quest and the more ritualistic approach from the Freemasons. I'm not so sure about the tree of life, it's less of a European/Western systems, but all these systems borrow from each other again and looking at early civilisation.
So I didn't see any secret emblems (nor do I have a book on it, but I'll start posting at the Free Mason lodge in my neighbourhood ;) )
I do wonder if there was any connection to the socialism/Marx & the Freemasons though and if Waite would have known that or was engaged with these ideas. Sorry, sideline ;)
 

Zephyros

But wasn't the tree of life applied to the cards later by others? And if I remember correct it is very unsure if that correspondence was actually intended by Waite? But the Thoth deck is based on this principle.

Later, yes, but before the Golden Dawn and before Waite. Both the RWS and the Thoth use the same system and structure. So in the case of these decks, it isn't that the Tree was applied to them later, but they were built from the ground up using it. It is part of their essential DNA and that of all subsequent clones. They would not exist without the Tree of Life.

As an aside, it always amuses me to hear that line (I'm not talking about you personally, Sandalwood). People tend to dismiss the kabbalistic aspects of Tarot because "they were added later." It's true, they were added later... later than 1500, but far earlier than many people think. The going sentiment seems to be that Waite created his deck in a vacuum, then busybodies came along and "added kabbalah," somehow.

I have to wonder, though, are there any works of import by Freemasons relating to the RWS? The Masons seem to be juggled around a lot here, but maybe there are things that would seem elementary to one.
 

Sandalwood

Later, yes, but before the Golden Dawn and before Waite. Both the RWS and the Thoth use the same system and structure. So in the case of these decks, it isn't that the Tree was applied to them later, but they were built from the ground up using it. It is part of their essential DNA and that of all subsequent clones. They would not exist without the Tree of Life.

As an aside, it always amuses me to hear that line (I'm not talking about you personally, Sandalwood). People tend to dismiss the kabbalistic aspects of Tarot because "they were added later." It's true, they were added later... later than 1500, but far earlier than many people think. The going sentiment seems to be that Waite created his deck in a vacuum, then busybodies came along and "added kabbalah," somehow.

I have to wonder, though, are there any works of import by Freemasons relating to the RWS? The Masons seem to be juggled around a lot here, but maybe there are things that would seem elementary to one.

That's okay, lol. I can totally relate to that description. With a bit of nuance ;) I'm sure all systems are influenced and interrelated, but in my opinion there's not just one system that can be applied. Or that everything started with the tree of life. But it may very well be. I don't know enough of the tree of life though to add anything solid here.

What do you mean by works of import? Like decks or books? There's symbolism of the Freemasons in the cards.
 

Teheuti

I am skeptical of any consistent use of color symbolism in the Waite decks. For one thing, there have been too many variables involved in the determination of the colors. All the Waite decks we now have are mere "clones" of the original deck, the original plates having been destroyed in the London blitz.
The plates would not have shown us the exact colors. The earliest decks do show us the original colors. I've seen originals of both the Rose&Lilies back Pamela A and the brown crackle-back Pamela A and compared them to my own deck. The colors are nearly identical to the RWS of the 1970s with some slight variations. A Pamela A is available online in high resolution. I believe color was important in the Major Arcana, although not to the extent that P.F. Case makes it out to be. OTOH, Case's explanation of the color-system works well.

I don't believe the colors are as deliberate, overall, in the Minor Arcana, although much can be made of them.
 

ravenest

Okay, yes, using the colours of the planets. But do the planets actually are a main feature in tarot or merely an extra? (More research, lol)

I dont think they are a main feature of tarot, but they are a main feature in symbolism and one of the few things that have lodged (as comparative symbols) in the TRUE MODEL * of the collective unconscious and behind the system that was made a main system of tarot (by some).

( * ie. the one we all share ... all people observed 7 'moving stars' , aside from cultural differentiation, it is a valid 'symbol set' in the collective unconscious - as is a hand print, a crescent moon shape, etc . _

Hence, the set of associations that have entered tarot. I have maintained, and still do, the basic patterns here (in tarot and other occult systems) connect because they 'match through' the collective unconscious (meaning all of us can see some validity to them).

They are;

7 - from the 7 observed 'wandering stars'

10 - the digits on the hand.

3 : 4 (their relationship and multiplication { and addition also gives 7} all through MANY things, including astrology) - the structure of the fingers (that were used for base 12 counting ) .

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...a=X&ei=xOVfVMKOC6K5mwWztoH4Dg&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ


.... You can see the Templars quest and the more ritualistic approach from the Freemasons. ...

No. I am sorry, but I cant see that. This is what I was asking .... how and where do you see that in the Waite deck ?
 

ravenest

Later, yes, but before the Golden Dawn and before Waite. Both the RWS and the Thoth use the same system and structure. So in the case of these decks, it isn't that the Tree was applied to them later, but they were built from the ground up using it. It is part of their essential DNA and that of all subsequent clones. They would not exist without the Tree of Life.

As an aside, it always amuses me to hear that line (I'm not talking about you personally, Sandalwood). People tend to dismiss the kabbalistic aspects of Tarot because "they were added later." It's true, they were added later... later than 1500, but far earlier than many people think. The going sentiment seems to be that Waite created his deck in a vacuum, then busybodies came along and "added kabbalah," somehow.

Well , 'busy bodies' did do that .... they also 'added' divinatory use to game cards at one stage ... but few seem to have issue with that.
I have to wonder, though, are there any works of import by Freemasons relating to the RWS? The Masons seem to be juggled around a lot here, but maybe there are things that would seem elementary to one.

The most valid writings seem to some from 'Ars Quatuor Coronatorum' maybe they have an index of publications somewhere ?

Like this :)

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/

... expansion of first index entry:

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/contents.html
 

Sandalwood

The plates would not have shown us the exact colors. The earliest decks do show us the original colors. I've seen originals of both the Rose&Lilies back Pamela A and the brown crackle-back Pamela A and compared them to my own deck. The colors are nearly identical to the RWS of the 1970s with some slight variations. A Pamela A is available online in high resolution. I believe color was important in the Major Arcana, although not to the extent that P.F. Case makes it out to be. OTOH, Case's explanation of the color-system works well.

I don't believe the colors are as deliberate, overall, in the Minor Arcana, although much can be made of them.

Thank you so much for that great information! Also briljant you have seen both of the decks and compared them :)
I've asked a Freemason friend about colour and from what he could tell me, colours in the Freemasons tradition aren't of greatest importance also.
I will look into Case his color-system. Thank you!

I dont think they are a main feature of tarot, but they are a main feature in symbolism and one of the few things that have lodged (as comparative symbols) in the TRUE MODEL * of the collective unconscious and behind the system that was made a main system of tarot (by some).

( * ie. the one we all share ... all people observed 7 'moving stars' , aside from cultural differentiation, it is a valid 'symbol set' in the collective unconscious - as is a hand print, a crescent moon shape, etc . _

Hence, the set of associations that have entered tarot. I have maintained, and still do, the basic patterns here (in tarot and other occult systems) connect because they 'match through' the collective unconscious (meaning all of us can see some validity to them).

They are;

7 - from the 7 observed 'wandering stars'

10 - the digits on the hand.

3 : 4 (their relationship and multiplication { and addition also gives 7} all through MANY things, including astrology) - the structure of the fingers (that were used for base 12 counting ) .

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...a=X&ei=xOVfVMKOC6K5mwWztoH4Dg&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ




No. I am sorry, but I cant see that. This is what I was asking .... how and where do you see that in the Waite deck ?

Hi Ravenest!
Thanks. That's so true of course, it being part of the collective unconcious.

It sounds like you have a similar approach to symbolism in the tarot.
Also thank for adding those numbers. Thats very interesting.

I'm not sure what to say on the symbolism and the Templars, since it's so much. For smaller symbols I think there's actually a Freemason that made a (personal) list on them. But you can see some of the Freemasons symbolism easiest in the pentacles-suit (like in the 3 and 8 of pentacles) and in the pillars throughout the deck. The cross on judgement refers to both. And the Templars were after the grail, which in my opinion is mostly depicted in the Cups suit. Then there's the ritualistic approach (now I'm going to have to hop to the Golden Dawn, because the rituals there are (as far as I know) more known due to Crowley, but there's similarities in the rituals and Waite was into Dawn as well of course- think of 'circle magic' and the pentagram - (combining the 4 elements makes you enter 'ether', the fifth point, which may be seen as hopping through the gate on the Ace of pentacles to make the journey through the major arcana. The Magician works with that information (and the 4 elements again) to start the cycle).

***** I just saw this on another thread posted by LRichard. That may help you along: "There are some original conjectures by Mary K. Greer about Waite's use of the Minors to illustrate certain narratives about the Holy Grail and the Masonic legend of Hiram Abiff. An early outline of her theory is in Llewellyn's 2006 Tarot Reader, but since then she had made some refinements. There may be some information in her blog. "

Edit: & I started googling & found this thread: http://www.tarotforum.net/archive/index.php/t-63319.html