How does Kabbalah fit in with the Tarot....

Greg Stanton said:

Actually, I don't find this to be the case. The GD meanings of the pips are at odds with most authors, including Waite and Mathers' independent work on the tarot.

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Yes this is what I am saying, thanks for agreeing with me

Many of the meanings Waite published are at odds with the GD meanings, and in fact at odds with the his cards also. But the images on the cards are (largely) compatible with the GD ones rooted in the faces of the decans party, and their qabalistic system.

Waite's 10 of Wands is very clearly the Lord of Oppresion, Saturn in Sagittarius. The 9 of Wands, the Lord of Great Strength, Moon in Sagittarius. The 8 of Wands, the Lord of Swiftness, Mercury in Sagittarius etc.. Waite gives these meanings in his book, but also others from other sources that conflict. To my mind the images clearly reflect the GD meanings more so that the other ones. You cannot look at the 10 of Wands and say "This card is not Oppression". It is Oppression above all other things.

Greg Stanton said:

Also, the GD tarot has the court cards all switched around and re-sexed, as they are in the Thoth, but this rather drastic change is not in the RWS deck.

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Or is it? http://www.lelandra.com/tarotbook/courtcorres.htm The form is the same as the TdM, but the details are certainly not. There is a blending of the two happening, at the very least.

Maybe we should just agree that the RWS is so very popular, because it is able to be all things to all people I can see my GD deck in it, and you can see your TdM. Fun eh?

similia said:

Another reason I wish my knowledge of Hebrew was greater, I'd love to read a Jewish version without the translation of english speaking Christians. (

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Not all translations are by or for english speaking christians; I would for example recommend the jewish study bible which besides translation into english contains extensive notes on each passage.

kwaw said:

I would for example recommend the jewish study bible which besides translation into english contains extensive notes on each passage.

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I second that.


I've been rereading this thread, and I'm confused.

Ange - are we right in understanding that you are rejecting Kaballah outright because Crowley once studied it, or is that a caricature of what you think? Are you only rejecting Crowley's own contributions to the subject (contributions which are contoversial among a number of Kabalists, btw)? Or are you saying something else entirely? Sorry, but I am really not clear on this.

Greg Stanton said:

I don't normally think of RWS as a Qabalistic deck, though Waite certainly made some relatively minor adjustments to the cards:

1) The order Justice and Strength are switched

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This is the one that amuses me, since it was done ostensibly to put the lion on leo and the scales on libra, whereas by bardic reckoning the number 11 (T the holly) was already leo, and 8 (F the alder, or Hebrew samekh, the head) was at aries, making Justice the wielder of the scales--that is, straight up from libra at aries the head--not the scales themselves.

2) The Pope and The Popess have been renamed to The Hierophant and The High Priestess (more anti-Christian sentiment from the occult crowd), but no real harm done.

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No, the main harm done was in changing the images, since they left out the mother's arm coming in from the side in (the TdM version of) trump 5 (B the birch of birth's blessing and the purging of evil spirits) and the circumcised phallus of (the TdM version of) trump 2 (E the quivering aspen, which as Hebrew heh was the simple letter assigned [prior to alef-bet order] to scorpio, the privates, since it was the letter added to Abram to make the circumcised Abraham), both of which are vital to the symbolism.

All in all, the RWS is a useful deck for practically anyone, no matter what their beliefs.

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Which makes it, in my estimation, a colorful toy, not a true game, like the Marseilles deck. But then I'm just a troublemaker anyway (just joking).

similia said:

..I wish my knowledge of Hebrew was greater, I'd love to read a Jewish version without the translation of english speaking Christians. That would be really exciting. ..

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really excellent is
The Jewish Study Bible: featuring The Jewish Publication Society TANAKH Translation

if you want to study Hebrew then the interlinear versions have the Hebrew text with each word translated either:

Torah: The Five Books of Moses - The Interlinear Bible: Hebrew / English
of the JPS Translation

or

The Schottenstein Interlinear Edition of the The Torah (and more)has an Interlinear Translation and a commentary (multi-volume)

Teach Yourself to Read Hebrew (CD & Book Set)
by Ethelyn Simon, Joseph Anderson
>>> this is great.. the fastest way to learn to read the vowels.. I wish I had found this book when I started study (the original Hebrew in the Torah has no vowels, but they have been added in other editions)

....and the next will save you a year of work translation
Old Testament Parsing Guide (get the later revised edition) Todd S. Beall
.. has every VERB conjugated for every verse..

then if you read the Zohar, you'll have a guide to understand the inner meaning .. one verse Genesis 1:1 can be contemplated for days

[deleted the rest ... digressing too far]

Thanks everyone for your recommendations, I am off to track down some study versions to sink my teeth into. I've printed off your list Zen Music and am taking it shopping with me

Beat you to it Similia!
I got a couple of others as well.
I had some suggested from here but here are some that take in Tarot.

Total Kabbalah by Maggy Whitehouse ISBN 978-0-8118-6137-3
The Everything Kabbalah Book by Mark Elber ISBN 1-59337-546-8

My brother bought me an excellent leatherbound Tanakh, but it was for Hebrew first (naturally) and the English translation was the other way up going from the last inwards toward the last book. Very confusing- but we exchanged it for another JPS study Bible- it is equally lovely to hold.

I have also received very mysteriously from someone a small book about the Letters- by Lawrence Kushner. It is a little wonder. It looks quite old and there is no ISBN to tell you.

Happy hunting! Thank you ZenMusic!
~Rosanne
PS. I do not believe that Kabbalah was inherent in Tarot- but have no problem with attaching it now, as it enriches the experience of Tarot.

Why not ask how Tarot fits in with Kabbalah?

Kilted Kat said:

Why not ask how Tarot fits in with Kabbalah?

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Duh! You are quite perfectly right. Sometimes a diamond just looks like a stone and you have to turn it over to see the sparkle.
~Rosanne