Can a Death or the World Outcome ever be Reversed ?

tarotbear said:

Nikita - I don't share your fatalistic vision of Tarot or life. No Pollyanna here - believe me - but Death is not an ending. For physical life it is - everything that lives must die - even things like the Sun will die out someday. But Death in a Tarot reading ... it's a signpost, a milestone, a cycle never-ending.

Is the disgustingly Pollyannic naïve hopefulness of The World card the be-all and end-all of peace, love, and the dawning of the Age of Aquarius? It, too, has a cycle and is a circle ...

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It's not me having a fatalistic vision of tarot, I have studied the cards for many years, read extensively on this subject, and known scores of tarot readers-and done a lot of readings, for myself and others-and the idea of Death being an ending, the physical or metaphorical end of something with no return, is not mine....Yes, the Sun and the stars and everything else will die one day, but not here and not now, wheres when Death comes up in a reading, there is definitely something dying, here and now....and if it means change, it only does that insofar as it is a change from something being alive, to something no longer being alive....and this is not me being gloomy and dark and pessimistic and fatalistic; it's just the way things are....And as for the Pollyannic view of life you mentioned-which I personally don't see in the World at all the way you described it-the World is the closing of a circle, a chapter, with the possibility of moving on to something new, that's all-this pollyannic view is very popular these days in a lot of new age circles where people embrace the philosophy that everything is always for the best, everything is good and beautiful, pain and suffering are a great experience, and so on....that's all it is, to me...a Pollyannic view of life, a refusal to accept things for what they are, an unrealistic vision and view of life....a refusal to acknoledge that death is just that, Death... and that not everything that happens in life is good, or positive, and not every cloud has a silver lining, and so on....that's my view of things, of course, and I simply call it realistic ( as opposed to pollyannic).

re-pete-a said:

Death is not final ...it is the start of something else...

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I wouldn't want to turn this into a semantic problem, but yes, it is the start of something else, new, because, like I said before, unless we die with it, we are even forced to move on to a new phase, in a way....but the fact remains, the phase before has finished, ended, died...

Grizabella said:

With regard to the Death card, what I'd say Death means is that, as it exists at this time, it can't survive. Without major changes, it's done. It's over. It will need total overhaul in order to pick up from there and go on, but unless the total changes occur, it's not going to survive.

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Yes, I can see what you mean. I can agree with that.

Grizabella said:

How does watching the complete works of Shakespeare performed in 90 minutes have anything to do with what I said?

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Yes, I was asking myself the same question....

QueenPen said:

Of course, it can. I am in a relationship right now that had both of those outcomes. All I can say is positive thinking and Law of Attraction and Creation. Two universal laws that, once you've learned, makes all the difference in abundance in all areas of life.

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That's very interesting, queenpen, this is the kind of real-life experience reply I was looking for...I'd love to hear the details of the story...but I don't want to intrude, of course...

Thirteen said:

Shouldn't you be asking the cards if this can be changed? I mean, you are, in part, correct about the Death card. As tarotbear says, all things must come to an end and the Death card usually indicates that: The End for this, no bringing it back from the dead like a zombie (who'd want that?). BUT getting the Death card in a reading doesn't always mean "IT WILL DIE!" It often means that something, like a relationship, may die if we don't do anything different.

I, myself, never take it as a given that the Death card or World card or combo of both indicate a guaranteed end. I always ask the cards if something can be done. And most of the time, I've gotten positive answers that, if acted on, have changed things. They don't bring the dead back to life, but like CPR, they stop the relationship from dying and give it more life.

Which is all to say, however convinced you are that these cards mean a non-negotiable end, neither you, nor we, can know for sure that these cards indicate that. Only the cards know. So why not ask them if there's a way to prevent this end? They might tell you "Sorry, time's up for this relationship. It's over." But there's a chance they may also say (as they often do in my experience): "New life can be breathed back into this dying relationship if you just do X..."

I wonder, however, if there might not be a more important question: do you want to save the relationship? Is it worth saving? Perhaps the Death/World card together, which always indicates a final end to you, appear because you want it over, and so are planning on letting it end. Self-fulling prophecy as it were.

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No, it's definitely not a self-fulfilling prophecy case. I did fight with my nails and teeth to make it work... I did what you suggested, in the past, when these cards came up, asking what could be done to avoid the ending, and the answers I got were not positive.
I asked it before it died, when the Death card was looming there in every reading, and I did see some hope to revert the course of events that were indicated. But it was a fight against windmills, in the end I had to face the truth and let go. Then it began to appear in the future or outcome position, and I began to wonder, as the future may or may not be fixed, how final they really were. But I didn't see any hope there, so I thought, to go back to the ending versus beginning theory, the best that Death can mean, is that this particular thing has died; a new beginning will have to be a new story entirely, a new experience, not this one...

Ruby Jewel said:

Taking the Death card at simple face value, it represents death. Since we already know that everything that is born will die, what is the point in predicting "death"? It is a foregone conclusion in every instance imaginable. The tarot is a teaching tool. it teaches us about morals and virtues.

What do we learn from our knowledge of death? We learn that it is inevitable and that nothing we do will change it. We also learn that we don't know and "cannot" know what follows death. Trying to read a "new life" into it is a projection of our desire for more....a denial of death and a wish for an alternative.....such as transformation.

Only the client knows intuitively what is at present risk in their life....a relationship, a loved one, the car.......whatever! What can he/she do to change that: nothing. There are no options. Clinging to hope is suffering. Humility and acceptance is the lesson that Death teaches us.

.......just my version.

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That' s a view that I share entirely-as tarotbear would say, fatalistic maybe, but realistic.

The original question you asked was "can a Death or World outcome ever be reversed?" I've been thinking about it some more and I think the World is possibly something that could be reversed. Not Death, though. If you travel around the world, you could backtrack and "un-go" around the world in a certain sense. If you die, though, you're dead---and that's final.

Grizabella said:

The original question you asked was "can a Death or World outcome ever be reversed?" I've been thinking about it some more and I think the World is possibly something that could be reversed. Not Death, though. If you travel around the world, you could backtrack and "un-go" around the world in a certain sense. If you die, though, you're dead---and that's final.

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And when they appear together....well, good luck, trying to reverse that.....!

re-pete-a said:

The sitter is sitting because they are not certain of what to do as is the original poster of this thread...

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...Or because they can't or won't accept it ...?

(the original poster)