Where O where has the Devil gone?

I've been thinking a lot lately about the "re-do" we have done on some cards. The Hierophant has become a teacher, not the hand of the Church, Death has become Transformation, the Hanged Man has become surrender, and so it goes. I'm not against any of this--I think it's a necessary progress-keeping our archetypes alive and current with our culture.
But.
But I'm having a problem with the Devil. More and more he is morphing into Pan, or Bacchus, the Green Man, or Cernnenos all firmly from the Pagan tradition. And that's cool. They're good guys, unlike the nasty awful Christian devil.
So what are we supposed to do for a nasty awful evil tempter, who is bound to try and harm you? Who wants to drag you down and destroy you, who represents our Shadow side, and contains the seeds of our own destruction? The evil one who plays on our weaknesses and leads us into temptation, pain, sorrow and loss. Who shows us the way to do the things we know we really really shouldn't do.
It's not like that energy isn't in our world anymore--it didn't pack it's bags and retire to St. Petersburg--we all deal with it daily, even if it is (luckily) only by listening to the News for most of us.
So what are we doing in the "new" tarots about the disappearance of this archetype? How are we reading these "Positive" devils? Are we making a mistake here, or are we actually making progress toward a kinder, gentler tarot.....and a world to go with it? Or are we lying to ourselves? What should we do about this?

What do you think?

Well, magpie, depending on one's level of evolvement, spirituality or lack of it for this matter, and expectations, the Devil can mean different things to different people.

For me the Devil may actually turn up when I am in a more agitated state of mind, but of course depending on its position in a spread, may incline others with this state of mind, or situations that reflect that, or when reading for certain individuals who are not yet on the spiritual wagon - sort of speak - or are pretty much materialistically inclined.

So, my point is that Tarot throughout time is not to blame for the mis-interpretation of any specific card, much less the Devil card, as this particular card may be a phase of one's conscious or unconscious mind, at any given time or place, or even be some outside influences that may be hard to control or to perceive and need our attention. Moreover, times of relative peace vs. times of war may stress the lighter vs the darker side of that Devil.

That was just my HO.

I connect very well with the idea of the devil representing the shadow side within us, rather than "the nasty awful Christian devil" as you said.

Because my personal beliefs have always been, heaven and hell are not places you go to when you die, they exist on this earth in this life all around us and within us. Similarly, I have always thought that the idea of the devil is actually the shadow side in us all. So devils can be positive - because you can't have dark without having light - acknowledging the devil gives us the opportunity to become better people, see where and why our energy is misdirected.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I don't think we are lying to ourselves at all, it's just a case of not surrendering power over to "evil". making a conscious decision to recognise it.

For myself by the way, I get the Devil coming up representing jealousy.

zazen said:

I find all those aspects in V, The Pope.

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What????? Have I stepped into a parallel universe? (or have you?). The Pope blesses, he does not bind.

Magpie - I think of the Devil reversed (or the negative aspect, if you don't read reversed) as representing the awful tempter that drags you down. In his positive aspect, he liberates you either by allowing you to confront and let go of those taboos that have no reason to exist (that's not the case for all taboos!), or by making you confront those parts of you that you'd rather not have to look at or that you are ashamed of (e.g. after a massive ego-attack), or by liberating your senses and teaching you to accept your place in the material world. But the Devil is very potent. And such potency comes at a price: we have to be equally strong - as strong as the lady in Strength - if we are not to become addicted to the highs that the Devil brings us, or his seductive lows. In a way, he is like whisky - perfectly good for you in small doses, lethal if you hit the bottle too often! That is why Temperance comes before the Devil - to prepare you and give you the tools to absorb and make the most of his heady experience.

Helvetica said:

What????? Have I stepped into a parallel universe? (or have you?). The Pope blesses, he does not bind.

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Yeah, I find that strange too.....Zazen, let us know more about what you mean. If he were reversed, I guess there's that sense of negative intentions masquerading as spirtuality maybe - a cult leader for example? But not in his normal upright sense. Unless he were a minister performing an arranged marriage possibly.

Necessary Devil

magpie9 said:

...So what are we supposed to do for a nasty awful evil tempter, who is bound to try and harm you? Who wants to drag you down and destroy you, who represents our Shadow side, and contains the seeds of our own destruction? The evil one who plays on our weaknesses and leads us into temptation, pain, sorrow and loss. Who shows us the way to do the things we know we really really shouldn't do.
It's not like that energy isn't in our world anymore--it didn't pack it's bags and retire to St. Petersburg--we all deal with it daily, even if it is (luckily) only by listening to the News for most of us.
So what are we doing in the "new" tarots about the disappearance of this archetype? How are we reading these "Positive" devils? Are we making a mistake here, or are we actually making progress toward a kinder, gentler tarot.....and a world to go with it? Or are we lying to ourselves? What should we do about this?...

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We're lying to ourselves. Sort of. If the Devil as Tempter and so on works for you, great. If you need a different image to convey the meaning, create one. But to re-cast the Devil image as all warm and cosy and cute (or whatever) does mean that certain realities of life will then be missing from the tarot deck. They will not have been eradicated from the world, but the reader will in essence be pretending they are not there. At her/his peril.

Magpie9; whatever have you got against St. Petersburg?

Being a Celtic Wicca I do not bother with the Christian image of the Devil card. To me the Devil is a kind of self imposed over-attachment to something you'd better leave behind (think of Marley's ghost of "A Christmas carol" how he is chained to the cash box and how he has to drag it after him).

This kind of over-attachment can be a person, (im)material thing, bad attitude/ bad feeling, etc.

When I get Devil in combination with a court card (very often with King of Swords) this is an indication for a pretty rotten character in a person (at least according to my experiences).

The devil is temptation, disregard for "the right thing to do" and a lack of consideration for others.
Even in the bible the Devil is the tempter, he who is overbearing, full of his own power and ability, high self-esteem and a faith in oneself over others, the one who will do what he pleases, however and whenever he pleases with no regard taken to anyone or anything else..
In practical life he is the one who does not play by the rules but instead demands what he wants when he wants in whatever way he wants it and will not take no for an answer, or atleast not quietly..

Sure Pan is a "light devil" in that he portrays the gleeful, irresponsible side of life, but he still indulges in pleasure over anything else. There's music played, there's joy and mirth to be had, there are pleasures of the flesh instead of - whatever it is we should do to make ready for winter, or our consideration for what others feel or think about what we want to do, or instead of getting everyday life to function as it should with bills getting paid, food being set on the table etc.
So, even pan is that same "evil foul creature" that is warned about in the bible. There's less coals and fire, but that's what leads us there according to the scriptures after all.
So if anything, focus has shifted from "the end result" to "the path" in terms of the devil-cards that are coming out in the more lighthearted decks.

The "nasty awful evil tempter, who is bound to try and harm you" is still there, be he a black horned one with goatsfeet and a pointy tail or a happy-go-lucky creature of the wild accompanied by laughter and music.
The devil never harms us because he wants to - he does because it is his nature. It is who he is, what he is, the very essense of what he is created by. The lack of consideration, concern and willingness to please anyone but oneself.
Is it evil to follow ones nature if it is built not to serve but to gain? Well, in biblical terms, yes because the religion in itself is all about servitude.

But we must also remember that the biblical devil is not the original version of this tempter. Others came before him and the biblical devil with horns and sulphur is just one way of looking at him.
There are hundreds of possible images for what he symbolises..

Lady Orchard said:

So devils can be positive - because you can't have dark without having light - acknowledging the devil gives us the opportunity to become better people, see where and why our energy is misdirected.

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You can have dark without having light a vice versa, you can have happyness without pain, suffering and sorrow. They don't define one another, they don't enhance one another. Darkness makes the light less bright, and light makes the darkness darker.

I've never focused on the tempter aspect of the devil, for me he's the shadow self. The things we hide for ourselves, thigs we should accept and handle even if we shouldn't act upon them. I can't remember ever getting him myself though, just in readings for other people...

aibhlin said:

You can have dark without having light a vice versa, you can have happyness without pain, suffering and sorrow

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I disagree. Dark and light, good and bad, yin and yang - their differences do help define each other. In my experience you can only truly understand and appreciate what happiness is, if you have experienced pain and suffering too.

My point was that the devil in us is just one side of human nature, and an acknowledgement of that can help us explore why we feel fear, why we are acting in a negative way. Owning the feelings as opposed to denying them is the first step to positivity.