Another Way Of Seeing the Cards.

Rosanne

Hi Moonbow- although these cards are familiar to us here, it takes some practise to try and see them another way. Even if my conjecture does fall over, it is good practice to try new eyes. Your comment "....and there is a sense that there is more to them than is obvious." is what makes it interesting for me, and has constantly puzzled me. I have come to the conclusion that for a game- there has to be other underlying reason for these 22 cards, other than a sequence of Christian theology- because some things are missing.

Now back to Mr and Mrs Church and State.....
The pips are visually female and male- batons and swords =male, Cups and Coins = female. This is not a new idea. Earth/Fire/Water/Air nor is it occult really. Also, take into consideration that really at the time, females were considered somewhat inferior in the hierarchy- but in Tarot they look positive or equal. Could this mean no suit is rated higher than the others in Tarot?

~Rosanne
 

Rosanne

Bernice said:
Grouping the four Suites.....


Cups........Popess
Coins.......Pope (but how would Coins be represented by a Pope? Collection box?)
Batons.....Empress
Swords.....Emperor

ETA: However, they are the lowest scoring. Must go find the rules for this game.

Bee :)
Cups and Coins Papesse/water and Empress/Earth
Batons and Swords Emperor/Fire and Pope/Air

Of course others may disagree.
 

Rosanne

RexMalaki said:
Then Empress and Emperor because these are the kinds of people who play the game...maybe.

Hi RexMalaki!
You are kind of of right in one sense. Church and State ( mainly today it is State) governed your life down to what you could do and not do. If you opposed either in any public way- you died. So cards (and other gambling like dice) was a freedom in a way- you could be top of the ladder in the game.
 

Rosanne

I was sent a snippet from a thread from over four years ago. This was by a guy called Fulgour and he was an enquirer to. My thanks to the sender and to Fulgour whose words were better than mine - it explains how I feel...

Tarot, whether by design or nature, defies every system.
So in each area of the Majors and Minors we come to find
that there is either more (too much) or less (too little) to
provide an exact KEY to link the cards to a hard system.

22 Majors, not 21, with an unnumbered Fool to defy us.
16 Courts, not 12, so the Zodiac will not simply overlay.
Ace through 10, not "1" through 9, defying numerology.

Everything is different in the realm of Tarot, special and
not like what you are accustomed to find anyelsewhere.
 

Rosanne

One of the earliest tarot decks known was created by Marziano di Tortona, secretary to Duke Fillippo Maria Visconti in 1415. The young duke asked his secretary to create a card game depicting Greek Gods, and four suits to represent various attributes - riches, virtues, pleasures and virginities. (From Tarot's Origins in Italy)
So maybe the suits are covered by the cards 2/3/4/5 rather than elements.
That early deck has disappeared after be given as a gift to Queen Lorraine.

To recap why Tarot cards may have escaped ordinances was this comment...

Popular legend holds that the composition of a deck of cards has religious, metaphysical, or astronomical significance. The context for these stories is sometimes given to suggest that the interpretation is a joke, generally being the purported explanation given by someone caught with a deck of cards in order to suggest that their intended purpose was not gambling.

Now why would the Lovers card (considered at 6) explain something of the game?
Well it is a bidding game and one bids on the strength of the hand.(mano di carte) It is a contract to win. Also once the bid has been won the remaining players form a union to stop the bidder winning his hand. Just like in 500 for those who know the game.
One thing I always puzzled about was the strange appearance of a green glove on the hand of the Bride in the Visconti.PMB. It seems a really strange thing to do- paint a green glove on the hand of a Bride.( Haha maybe she depicts maybe the winning of the Hand!) I can find nothing historical that would explain this. I once thought it was green for fidelity. Cupid or Eros is blindfolded (usual motif)- he does not aim his arrow in the Visconti- but aims at the man in the Noblet. So opposing the winning bidder is a marriage of convenience. between the remaining players..... :rolleyes:

Next is the Chariot..... :eek:

~Rosanne
 

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Bernice

Bee:
Cups........Popess
Coins.......Pope (but how would Coins be represented by a Pope? Collection box?)
Batons.....Empress
Swords.....Emperor

It dawned on me that If the instructions of how to Play the Game were here in the trumps, then I shouldn't need to find the pdf with the Game Rules (which is hiding somewhere on my pc).

So I got the noblet out and had a proper look at these four cards. Would their sequence/numbering give a clue as to the value of the suites when in play? I also notice that Mr & Mrs State are sandwiched between Mr & Mrs Church. Mr Church at the last showing the highest value of them (???).

Now I'm happy to go along with Rosannes thought that Male figures = Batons & Swords. Female figures = Cups & Coins. So the Popess might indicate the lowest value suite, the Empress is next. So I wonder which of them is Cups and Coins. (i.e. The Empress appears to have some sort of open 'bag' on her lap = Cups?).
I'm not really convinced that the elements may have been assigned to them if the cards are 'instructions'........ I quite like; riches, virtues, pleasures and virginities.

~~~~~~

The Chariot:
Not really sure if he's standing or sitting, but think he's probably on his feet. He's on a mobile chariot - but is it actually moving?

Is this the preparation to start the game, like a signal? Or could it be a hint that you've got to Win, be victorious?

Floundering.....


Bee :)
 

Bernice

SMALL ASIDE:

Took another look at Le Bateleur. As Rosannne has noted, there are 4 sets of 3 , or 5 sets if you count the table legs. Does the game consist of 4/5 rounds? or do the players get dealt with 4/5 cards.....

Bee :)
 

Rosanne

Hi Bee!
3 players originally, 24 cards each I guess and four for the kitty or chien which means dog. :p maybe the fools dog- what you left behind or as we say 'discard' or 6 with Noblet and like. 4 players today = 18 cards + Kitty.

As to the Noblet Bateleur- there is a preponderance of groups of Three.
6 in fact= makes 18 things. Interesting. Four players for the Noblet.

Now the Chariot was going to floor me- literally.
There I was trying to be a Renaissance person- wondering what I would think when I saw that card.

Then it came to me in a flash......
The person who wins the bid in French Tarot is called the taker Le Preneur
to be precise. Now that word means in English The Lessee. Lessee in Italian is Locatario from the Latin Locare to place or let for hire. There he is- a Prince for hire- a mercenary Prince/soldier/ condoiterie- a locator/lessee. Not going anywhere mind you- there he stays ready for the game war. Our Chariot is the winner of the bidding round.

~Rosanne
 

Rosanne

Ok...... I have gone through 7 cards.
Any further interest in researching this idea of the images and the game?
......or am I in the wrong forum for this?

~Rosanne
 

Bernice

Another small aside: I can't find the 6th set of 3 in Le Bateleur (noblet). Unless it's the three 'ground-swells, two blue & one yellow. Yep. That must be it.


8th card: Justice.
Right, The initial bid has been won (Chariot). Now we're off!.

Justice and the Hermite precede the Wheel of Fortune, so maybe they should be consdiered together, because the Wheel could be another deal/round?

....something to do with hiding one's hand? Keeping cards 'close to the chest'?
eta: ...and then flipping one face-up (Hermit has a torch/lamp).

Bee :)