Is the Tarot Pre-Christian?

Bernice

euripides: I think one of the challenging things is that in Europe we have a massive intermingling of stories from Classical antiquity, Christendom and Pagan europe, so it becomes a real melting pot and there's a lot of stuff to absorb.
A valid foundation for considering possible symbols/iconograpy that may be present in the 22 trump cards. However, I do not think the tarot "pre-dates paper cards", which is what the OP stated.


Bee :)
 

Huck

euripides said:
I think it's a good idea to start with the existing, known history before trying to head back into the roots - and I know that I have some gaps in my knowledge. I don't have Kaplan's book - I do have another very good Tarot book with quite a lot of history, though the author does make a major error in ascribing the wrong myth to the Sun card.

From there I think taking a good look at the Greek myths is useful. These would have been well known to the makers of the early tarot decks and our history is steeped in it. A visit to the art gallery and steeping oneself in Classical imagery and stories means that many allusions in the Tarot cards become more clear.

I think one of the challenging things is that in Europe we have a massive intermingling of stories from Classical antiquity, Christendom and Pagan europe, so it becomes a real melting pot and there's a lot of stuff to absorb.

I think, that Kaplan Encyclopedia I is VERY helpful, and Kaplan II is helpful ... but the second might be not necessary for a begin.
A lot of themes have already appeared here in the forum, if you focus on this and the Marseille Forum, you might find a lot of topics with the help of the Forum search engine.
Anyway, Kaplan would be really helpful ... naturally he also has errors, but it creates a base about which one could talk.
 

Debra

euripides said:
I don't have Kaplan's book - I do have another very good Tarot book with quite a lot of history, though the author does make a major error in ascribing the wrong myth to the Sun card.

Which book you referring to, Euripides? (Wondering if I have read it.)
 

Melanchollic

I'm so glad someone has finally had the revelation of Tarot's real non-Christian origins! I've been going around here for months trying to practice those horrid Christian virtues - Justice, Fortitude, and Temperance. At last I'm free to thoughtlessly indulge my whims and appetites, stay in my comfort-zone, and not worry about being fair with my fellow man. Awesome!!. ;)
 

Huck

19-05.jpg


This is more or less a "Tarot card", although at the time of its painting likely called "Trionfi card".

The persons are thought to be Diogenes and King Alexander of Macedonia.

Both are pre-Christian, naturally.

But the paper, the color, the painter, the commissioner of the deck, the location etc. were from 15th century AD.

Let's assume, that a reader in 15th century did read the psalms (then maybe 2500 years old) and had been so impressed, that he made a Psalms deck. Why not, it wouldn't change our idea of the world, if tomorrow it's in the newspaper, that a deck was found in a church chair or wherever and it definitely shows some indications, that it is about Psalms.

Then we would talk tomorrow about it ... :) ... but not today. Somehow the things must be real, about which we talk here, otherwise the topic would become endless.

Generally there are a lot of "similar systems" in the pre-Christian area. I mentioned the 22 political departements of upper-Egyptia, these were 22 and more than that, each departement had a connected picture. And more of it, the whole series was painted or stone-engraved on the front- or backside of the tempels - at the other side were the 20 signs of the political departements of lower Egyptia. Together they presented 42 death gods of the Egyptians. This system is said to have existed since c. 2500 BC.

Well, it has similarities to Tarot. It would be interesting, if the 15th century persons had knowledge about it and that it had been important for them. I personally don't see this.
 

euripides

Now the psalm connection IS an interesting possibility, though I never really paid much attention to them, so I can't comment further on that right now.

Melancholic, I guess that you're making a joke, but if not, you do know that even while the Christian values are very much present in the cards, they are also layered over pre-Christian ideas? Nothing exists in isolation, and cultural traditions build upon each other. Just as we find a god-man sacrificing himself on a tree in many cultures.

Berenice, I didn't read the OP carefully enough: you're right, I don't think the Tarot in itself pre-dates playing cards, and my understanding is that it emerged from playing cards. Here's a nice little round-up - http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/Tarot_History

When I talk about the origins of Tarot in antiquity, I'm referring to traditions that eventually find their way into the images on the deck, and also in the notion of fortune-telling with objects. So no, not Tarot itself.

Kaplan's Encyclopedia of Tarot:
http://www.amazon.com/Encyclopedia-Tarot-Vol-1/dp/0913866113
 

Melanchollic

euripides said:
Melancholic, I guess that you're making a joke, but if not, you do know that even while the Christian values are very much present in the cards, they are also layered over pre-Christian ideas? Nothing exists in isolation, and cultural traditions build upon each other.

Now why'd ya have to go and tell me that!? I was just putting the finishing touches on my plans for a full-on weekend intemperance binge! :eek:
 

Rosanne

Well I would place a considerable amount of money on the premise that you will never find a triumph game of cards that used the Psalms, or the Book of Revelations either, with it's 22 chapters.
The Visconti PMB cards do not show God in Judgment- most likely that's Charlemange in Christian Victory.
Pagan Gods, birds and animals, the Elements like winds, emblems like the four Apostles,Angels, Hell and Saints or personages dressed like Saints, Kings and Queens, Virtues personified, - but nothing Sacred. NO Mary, Jesus Christ or God the Father in anything secular. Michelangelo's Pieta was for a funerary monument within the Church and David was for outside in a piazza. Sculptures of Apollo were for Vatican Gardens as was Bacchus. There was a very delineated areas for where sacred went and where secular went- and it was enforced.
So Tarot having Pagan imagery and allowed items like angels is perfectly understandable. That does not make Tarot pre- Christian in concept. It is a theme like dressed cats are today or the Sola Busca. It may appear to have a Christian sequence- but generally it is not that in the sense of a salvation sequence. It is almost like a Chivalric code, but directed at how by living a good virtuous life you attain your own Salvation- which was the Humanist theme of the time.
Of course there were influences from the past- astrological- Greek legends-
but I too think it unlikely Egyptian influences.
But if KariRoad would like to elaborate, I would be more than happy to be proved wrong.
~Rosanne
 

euripides

Melanchollic said:
Now why'd ya have to go and tell me that!? I was just putting the finishing touches on my plans for a full-on weekend intemperance binge! :eek:

Well ya know you can't have Temperance and forget the Devil and the Chariot so I say, give those urges free reign, full steam ahead and do the whole cycle properly!
 

Bernice

Great to see you Mel. Sorry you've had to forego the Binge!


Bee :)