Thoth Pips

ravenest

And ... I think, in light of this info, it would be better (in this / her system ) to have the planet in fall in the third decan of the sign and not the one in detriment ... I knew that didn't feel right ... I just couldn't remember the 4th relationship.
 

Richard

And ... I think, in light of this info, it would be better (in this / her system ) to have the planet in fall in the third decan of the sign and not the one in detriment ... I knew that didn't feel right ... I just couldn't remember the 4th relationship.
I think that if one is to use decans for the planets in fall, they should be opposite the decan in which they are exalted. For example, Luna is in exaltation at 3° Taurus, which is in the 1st decan; so it should be in fall in the opposite decan, which is the 1st decan of Scorpio.

If the ruling (or detrimented) planets are to be associated with a decan, maybe it should be the central (2nd) decan, but I really think this localizes them too much, since their influence is spread over all three decans.

ETA. I really think she should drop the idea of associating rulership, detriment, and fall with specific decans. The planets of the Golden Dawn decans don't really rule anything. Venus rules Taurus. The 1st decan of Taurus is also ruled by Venus, but the influence of Mercury in the 1st decan is not auspicious, which is reflected in the 5 of Disks.
 

ravenest

I think that if one is to use decans for the planets in fall, they should be opposite the decan in which they are exalted. For example, Luna is in exaltation at 3° Taurus, which is in the 1st decan; so it should be in fall in the opposite decan, which is the 1st decan of Scorpio.

errrmmm (hunches down) ... why ?

I haven't worked that out, it might match up, but in this example it gives association AWAY from Scorpio to an origin in Taurus, The first decan of Scorpio would be the exalted planet in that sign, the last decan in Scorpio would be the fall, not the first decan.
If the ruling (or detrimented) planets are to be associated with a decan, maybe it should be the central (2nd) decan,
I did suggest the ruling planet in the 2nd decan (reason given above in a previous post) but why do you suggest the detriment planet in the middle of the sign ???
but I really think this localizes them too much, since their influence is spread over all three decans.

Oh sure! But this isn't my idea ... look, how about I give her your phone number and she can ring you up and debate it with you with her 'womanly logic' })

MY original suggestion to her is MUCH simpler ;

For GODS SAKE pick a system and stick with it :laugh: "Tell you what, you name the decan you want to work with, I will look at that decan on an astrological map and select the significant stars in that decan, then I will go to source material and see what influence the different planets have in relation to that star, then you can collate the ones that fit best depending on what aligns with the Chaldean or GD system .. or use tarot cards or whatever! "

e.g.
I think that if one is to use decans for the planets in fall, they should be opposite the decan in which they are exalted. For example, Luna is in exaltation at 3° Taurus, which is in the 1st decan; so it should be in fall in the opposite decan, which is the 1st decan of Scorpio.

errrmmm (hunches down) ... why ?

I haven't worked that out, it might match up, but in this example it gives association AWAY from Scorpio to an origin in Taurus, The first decan of Scorpio would be the exalted planet in that sign, the last decan in Scorpio would be the fall
If the ruling (or detrimented) planets are to be associated with a decan, maybe it should be the central (2nd) decan,
I did suggest the ruling planet in the 2nd decan (reason given above in a previous post) but why do you suggest the detriment planet in the middle of the sign ???
but I really think this localizes them too much, since their influence is spread over all three decans.

Oh sure! But this isn't my idea ... look, how about I give her tour phone number and she can ring you up and debate it with you with her 'womanly logic' })

MY original suggestion to her is MUCH simpler ;

For GODS SAKE pick a system and stick with it :laugh: "Tell you what, you name the decan you want to work with, I will look at that decan on an astrological map and select the significant stars in that decan, then I will go to source material and see what influence the different planets have in relation to that star, then you can collate the ones that fit best depending on what aligns with the Chaldean or GD system .. or use tarot cards or whatever! "

e.g. El Nath, Beta Taurus, 22 GEM 35.

Of the nature of Mars and Mercury. It gives fortune, eminence and neutrality for good or evil. [Robson*, p.164.]

Martian in nature; reputed to be an indication of success. [Larousse Encyclopedia of astrology].

With Sun: Ecclesiastical preferment, honour through science, religion or philosophy. [Robson*, p.164.]

With Moon: Quarrels with questionable associates, business success, environment detrimental owing to wife, partner or relative. [Robson*, p.164.]

With Mercury: Favour of superiors, but enmity of colleagues, rises to high position or changes vocation, favourable for gain, but many small losses, domestic expenses, often obliged to support an invalid. [Robson*, p.164.]

With Venus: Favourable for gain, enemies who are powerless to injure. [Robson*, p.164.]

With Mars: Good lawyer, speaker, and debater, quick-witted. [Robson*, p.164.]

With Jupiter: Success in legal or ecclesiastical affairs, favourable for gain and inheritance. [Robson*, p.164.]

With Saturn: Cautious, thoughtful, bad-tempered, accumulates money, favourable for domestic affairs, gain through relatives, may receive start in life through a legacy. [Robson*, p.164.]

With Uranus: Great mental energy and force of character, weak body, original and practical ideas, occult interests, but material aims, late success, favourable for domestic affairs, death in middle age. [Robson*, p.165.]

With Neptune: Active in mind and body, vacillating, some physical defect, occult interests, may make discoveries in medicine, domestic disharmony owing to peculiar matrimonial ideas, may become famous, death in middle age. [Robson*, p.165.]
 

Richard

errrmmm (hunches down) ... why ?..............
If a planet is exalted in a sign, it is in fall in the diametrically opposite sign. Therefore, if the exaltation takes place in a certain decan, it seems reasonable to associate the fall with the diametrically opposite decan. For example, Luna is in exaltation in the 1st decan (3° in fact) of Taurus, so why not therefore associate its fall with the diametrically opposite decan (which happens to be the 1st decan of Scorpio)?

ETA. Sorry, this is all left brain stuff. (Think about how Crowley justified switching the positions of Emperor and Star in the Tree of Life because their signs are opposite those of Justice and Strength.)
 

ravenest

If a planet is exalted in a sign, it is in fall in the diametrically opposite sign. Therefore, if the exaltation takes place in a certain decan, it seems reasonable to associate the fall with the diametrically opposite decan. For example, Luna is in exaltation in the 1st decan (3° in fact) of Taurus, so why not therefore associate its fall with the diametrically opposite decan (which happens to be the 1st decan of Scorpio)?

Yes it does seem reasonable, but (within this persons postulated system) they want the first decan of Scorpio to be with the planet exalted in Scorpio which would make Luna exalted in Scorpio - I know that wont be acceptable ... but Luna ruling the last decan in Scorpio (Luna in fall to Scorpio might be.

Anyway, lets not give it too much energy ... we could work it all out and :

Ravenest rushes up to .... with reams of paper and charts, "We finally worked it all out to a system that incorporates 90% of your ideas."

..... says , "Oh .... I'm not doing that anymore, I have this new idea ... "
ETA. Sorry, this is all left brain stuff. (Think about how Crowley justified switching the positions of Emperor and Star in the Tree of Life because their signs are opposite those of Justice and Strength.)

No I am not going to think about that :laugh: ... because it is a dodgy justification ... })
 

ravenest

P.S. But thanks all for the other info ... some good answers (on the why no exaltation for 'everyone' ).
 

Richard

.......Oh sure! But this isn't my idea ... look, how about I give her your phone number and she can ring you up and debate it with you with her 'womanly logic' })......
No thanks! The frustration of coping with 'womanly logic' is a rather extreme form of penance, which should be reserved for serial killers and the like. If there is a hell, as some Abrahamic religions claim, I will get there soon enough anyhow.
 

zhan.thay

Ptolemy's Table of Essential Dignities

I have just finished reading the posts in this thread and you're right it is all left brain stuff and, imo, it just gets more convoluted when you look at traditional astrologers' P'sOV.

But anyway, if someone's still watching this thread, this table and the website with the explanation may be of interest. Or it may be regarded as cruel and unusual punishment I don't know.
The table is attached at the end of this post: dignities2.gif

Read the full explanations here:
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/dignities.html

Below are some excerpts re decans:
Dignity Rulership by Face
The lowest form of essential dignity is dignity by face - the 'decanates'. These owe their origin to the ancient Egyptian calendar, which divided the year into 36 ten-day periods, each presided over by a particular stellar deity. The decans or decanates (meaning 'tens') are known to have been important in late Egyptian astrology and we are told by the 4th century Roman astrologer Firmicus that the astrologer King Nechepso "... by means of the decans predicted all illnesses and afflictions". Nechepso reigned during the 7th century BC although Firmicus probably got his information from the astrological textbook of Nechepso and Petosiris, written around 150 BC.

Firmicus placed great emphasis on essential dignity by face saying that a planet in its own decan is as good as in its own sign (Mathesis II.IV.II). Later authors gave it less value. Ezra described a planet in its own face as corresponding to a man with his ornaments and clothing, while Lilly said that in judgement:

"A Planet having little or no dignity, but by being in his Decanate or Face, is almost like a man ready to be turned out of doors, having much ado to maintain himself in credit and reputation."

It portrays a picture of a person who carries some respect, but is struggling to maintain it.
Observations about the decan or face column of the table:
The sixth column shows the degrees where rulership by face transfers. That is, Mars rules the first ten degree of Aries, from 0°00' - 9°59'; the Sun rules rules from 10°00' - 19°59 Aries.

Notice how the order of planetary rulership over the faces winds across the column in descending order of their proximity to earth; that is - Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon.

As you read their order down the column, you find the pattern that matches the order of the days of the week - Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, Saturn:

Sun - Sunday
Moon - Monday
Mars - Tuesday (equivalent Scandinavian god Tyr - O.E.: Tiw)
Mercury – Wednesday (equivalent Scandinavian god Odin - O.E.: Woden)
Jupiter - Thursday (equivalent Scandinavian god Thor)
Venus - Friday (equivalent Scandinavian god Frigg)
Saturn - Saturday
 

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Richard

Thanks for the link!
 

Barleywine

If you can get your hands on it, "On the Heavenly Spheres" by Helena Avelar and Luis Ribeiro has a very lucid explanation of term and face. A few points of interest:

The 5 terms in each sign are of irregular length, ranging from 3 degrees to 8 degrees of arc (nobody knows precisely why). No two signs have the same sequence of term length and ruler in combination.

The series of terms in each sign always ends with a "malefic" planet, usually Saturn but sometimes Mars.

The Sun and Moon don't rule a term, which leaves 5 planets to apportion among 5 terms across 12 signs - very neat and orderly!

The terms that appear in the works of most ancient authors are the "Egyptian Terms." There are also "Ptolemaic Terms" in a couple of different versions.

"Face" is another name for "decanate" - 3 equal divisions of 10 degrees in each sign.

The "Chaldean" sequence of face rulers runs Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon, Saturn, Jupiter, starting at 0 degrees of Aries and continuing around in 10-degree chunks to the end of the zodiac.

These factors are used in an elaborate add/subtract calculation that assigns relative strength to each planet with the goal of identifying the strongest planet in a chart. Term is considered a stronger dignity than face.