Card order in the GD

Farzon

I was winding about this for long...
The Hermetic Tarot and the Toth gives different orders for the cards.
The order concerning the elemental dignities is clear with fire-water-air-earth. But as only deck I've seen so far, the HT places the courts in front of the aces, not behind the tens.
Is there a canonical Golden Dawn way to order the cards?
 

Zephyros

Depends on your point of view. :)

"Officially" the ordering is Trumps, Aces, Courts and Minors, I'm pretty sure. But that linear ordering ignores the Tree of Life, which complicates things. I look at the Trumps as four cards in one, with the Minors and Aces interwoven between them, and the Courts being separate entities that illustrate how the paths and emanations move.

Of course, I may be wrong. Looking at my own Hermetic, I see that the ordering is Trumps, then Courts and their respective Minors. I probably found that ordering in a book, but I still don't agree with its linear setup.
 

Farzon

This ordering was also given in my Hermetic's LWB. In the Mary-El's book Mary White sees the courts as mediators between the profane courts and the divine trumps. This view makes the Hermetic's order logical.
But I can't remember a Thoth-deck in that order. Or is Crowley simply too far away from the GD already to be considered here?
 

Aeric

The Hermetic LWB curiously lists the Hierophant as the very first card of the order, even as Major V, before the Magician. This was the first time I read this anywhere. Is it because the role was considered the most esteemed in the GD?
 

Zephyros

This ordering was also given in my Hermetic's LWB. In the Mary-El's book Mary White sees the courts as mediators between the profane courts and the divine trumps. This view makes the Hermetic's order logical.
But I can't remember a Thoth-deck in that order. Or is Crowley simply too far away from the GD already to be considered here?

Except for a few changes, Crowley is very GD. Still, it might be easier to answer your question if you explained why you want to know. After, the ordering isn't really integral, especially since the "machinery" of thedeck operates differently, according to a non-linear structure.

The Hermetic LWB curiously lists the Hierophant as the very first card of the order, even as Major V, before the Magician. This was the first time I read this anywhere. Is it because the role was considered the most esteemed in the GD?

I couldn't find where that's written (luckily the LWB of the Hermetic is among the only ones that survived, I generally lose them).
 

Farzon

I want to know because I like to put my cards back in order after some time. Especially when I've read for someone else. As some sort of cleansing, you could say.
The Hermetic was my first deck so I feel some sort of sympathy for that way of ordering. Most decks I keep in their original order, but I have been thinking about rearranging them for some time now.

I recently got the Crystal Tarot and I arranged it in the Hermetic's way, it just felt naturally. That's why I think about that....
 

Ross G Caldwell

In the "Book T" of the GD, the order is given from 1-78 (numbered as such):

1. Ace of Wands (Root of Powers of Fire)
2. A Swords (Air)
3. A Pentacles (Earth)
4. A Cups (Water)
5-8 Knight to Knave of Wands
9-12 Knight to Knave of Cups
13-16 Courts of Swords
17-20 Courts of Pentacles
21. 5 of Wands
22. 6 of Wands
23. 7 of Wands
24. 8 of Pentacles
25. 9 of Pentacles
26. 10 of Pentacles
27-56 etc. following the decanate system discussed elsewhere here.
57-78. The trumps, Fool to Universe.

In Crowley's "Wheel and Whoa!", in the beginning of the Book of Thoth, he gives the order of meditation as "Fool unto the 10 of Coins", suggesting a more natural interpretation, and placing the Courts "higher" than the Aces in each suit.

I hope that helps.
 

Farzon

In the "Book T" of the GD, the order is given from 1-78 (numbered as such):

1. Ace of Wands (Root of Powers of Fire)
2. A Swords (Air)
3. A Pentacles (Earth)
4. A Cups (Water)
5-8 Knight to Knave of Wands
9-12 Knight to Knave of Cups
13-16 Courts of Swords
17-20 Courts of Pentacles
21. 5 of Wands
22. 6 of Wands
23. 7 of Wands
24. 8 of Pentacles
25. 9 of Pentacles
26. 10 of Pentacles
27-56 etc. following the decanate system discussed elsewhere here.
57-78. The trumps, Fool to Universe.

In Crowley's "Wheel and Whoa!", in the beginning of the Book of Thoth, he gives the order of meditation as "Fool unto the 10 of Coins", suggesting a more natural interpretation, and placing the Courts "higher" than the Aces in each suit.

I hope that helps.

It seems the Hermetic is in Crowley's order, then. (except for Justice and Strength). I never thought this thread would get that sophisticated, though :D

What still bothers me: what did the GD say about putting cards back in order after a reading? That is, if they said anything on the subject.
 

Zephyros

I suspect they had other ways of "cleansing." A reading was more than just a reading, it was a whole magical affair. An Opening of the Key could start with a Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram, then the invocations, then the reading itself which could take several hours, then another LBRP. This may not be exactly how they did it, but it seems to make sense.
 

Aeric

I couldn't find where that's written (luckily the LWB of the Hermetic is among the only ones that survived, I generally lose them).
My book says copyright 2006.

Page 6: "The Hermetic Tarot is collated in the following sequence: V. The Hierophant; 0. The Foolish Man; I. The Magician through IV. The Emperor. VI. The Lovers through XXI. Universe; knight, queen, king and princess in the suit of wands, followed by court cards in the suits of cups, swords and pentacles; ace through 10 in wands followed by cups, swords and pentacles."