II La Papesse

jmd

I've been somewhat day-dreaming, and it occured to me that part of what I posted above is precisely related to Athena Parthenon... in terms of her virginity, in terms of her patronage, and in terms of her 'dual' with Arachne!
 

jmd

With regards to the possible similarity of depiction between the Popess and the Virgin Mary, here is Simone Martini's (born circa 1284) Annunciation (there are actually two versions of this, but I only have one e.version.

The Annunciation, of course, occurs prior to the child's birth, and hence is logically followed by the Empress...
 

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Kaz

i'll add they card of my deck here

kaz
 

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jmd

And here is attached another annunciation from between 1400-1470 in a Nantes Book of Hours.

Again we can see the Virgin depicted with an open book.
 

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Kaz

attached: carey yale visconti papesse

kaz
 

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Kaz

attached: visconti sforza papesse

kaz
 

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catboxer

I think that Cary-Yale card is the virtue Charity, not the Papesse. I'm not absolutely certain because I'm not sure what the Papesse looks like (guess I have to buy the 40-buck deck from US Games).

Besides Fortitude, Temperance, and Justice, the Cary-Yale included Faith, Hope, and Charity, which didn't make it into the standard trump sequence. A lot of people think that the Cary Yale was an experimental prototype, while the Visconti-Sforza marks the beginning of tarot as we know it.

I love the Visconti-Sforza Papesse. It's my favorite card in the deck, so much so that my own version is a really shameless copy (and not nearly as well executed, I should add).

(cb)
 

Kaz

that's correct dave.
the original deck missed some 22 cards, and the highpriestess/papesse is called "charity" in this deck.
other majors that were missing and have been reconstructed by a guy called luigi scapini are fool, magician, justice, hermit, wheel of fortune, hanged man, temperance, devil, tower, moon, sun.
and then some courts and a minor as well.
now not much for a deck there for starters, only 56 cards.
hierophant is named "faith" in this deck and star is "hope" , all the others have the normal names.
maybe jmd or diana have some info to add to this, i might be mistaken as well here in some details, as i am not strong in historical stuff.

kaz
 

Supletion

it was very interesting reading the posts throughout this whole thread, seeing that catboxer and jmd have covered the historical side, while diana has certainly mentioned all of the important points about the symbolical side.

first, the top of the crown that goes outside the of frame, which other than this card appears only at The World, in a much bolder way. here, it isnt something that you notice immediately such as in The World - just like the curtains, it might show that the high priestess is hiding her true nature.

second, the flesh-colored book. although jmd has mentioned that the colors are different than what they originally were, this detail is well noticed especially in the decks where her skin color is dead white. while she is covered from head to toe and the little seen of her skin is as white as a wall, the book is fleshy and vivid.
it might show that the way to reach the high priestess and create a contact with her, is her intelect and wisdom, her mind. despite of the curtains and the coldness she reflects, there is a way to get to her - following the middle line of the book, through the vertical lines of the two crosses in the blue strip attached to the book, leads under the curtains, to the area of her heart.

Ben Dov, which i so much like to read and quote (and which connects La Papesse only to pope joan, so it was very interesting for me to read what catboxer had to say about that), also mentions in his article about the high priestess that in the camoin's card, the book has 8 lines on one page and 9 lines on the other - together 17 - which "redirects" you to The Star, the card which shows pretty much the opposite of what the high priestess does, and might show her craving to express her true nature, like the streaming nature and the naked character appearing in the star, instead of all those curtains she is wrapped in.

also, putting La papesse and La pape next to each other creates an interesting picture: on one hand, they are sitting back to back, looking in the opposite direction of eachother, and not only that, the curtains on the high priestess head and behind it make the disconnecton alot more clear. on the other hand, that image which is created makes them look as if they're working as a team - there are many similarities between the cards (other than the obviously related names), such as their clothing, their crowns, and a diagonal line appearing in the two cards at the same place - in La Papesse, its the middle line of the book and the blue strip with the crosses continuing it, and in La Pape, its the position of his left hand and the two fingers. it makes them look like they're on the same team, the same mission, to pass on the knowlegde they have - they are facing outside, him with his hand and her with her book, teaching the surrounding.

with regards,
Supletion.
 

jmd

Great to see that you have joined as a regular contributor to these threads, Supletion.

With regards to the Papesse's crown surpassing the frame, this is of course, as I have mentioned earlier, only correct for some Marseilles decks. Personally, I prefer depictions which do not do this in any obvious fashion. The Conver is here the subtlest, for only part of the top-most small circle touches the frame.

The ultra-white skin of the Camoin deck is again reminiscent of various representations of the Virgin at the Annunciation, but must admit that, again, I prefer the (pale but living) skin-colour more common on Marseilles decks.

As this is another thread in which the Camoin has not yet been posted, I attach it hereforth.

Attached is the 1998 Camoin version.
 

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