Horary charts : how to figure out answers and their TIME FRAME?

I'm looking a little closer at the horary charts. I understand that the time frame of the answer very much depends on what sign and what house the significator is : ie: if the significator is in a fixed sign, in a succedent house then the answer will take years to come to fruition...

Well, about 'hours' : Is it not possible to figure out an answer in terms of 'hours'?

And also, is it true that one has to look at the fourth house to get the final answer to a question? ex: if the question is about one's career then we would have to look at the first house because it is the 4th house from the 10th?

Thanks,

Maggie

Timings from a horary chart are something of an art.

Frawley has an excellent chapter in his Horary Textbook - on of three essential books for the horary practitioner (the other's being Lee Lehman's Martial Art of Horary Astrology and, of course, William Lilly's Christian Astrology Books 1 and 2)

Frawley points out the obvious problem in your question. Taking Angular Houses or Fixed Signs to represent years, is not particularly helpful in the question 'when will my girlfriend phone?'

Frawley suggests that the chart carries its own time frame depending on the question. Each chart can have 3 broad time frames, short, medium and long but the fixed units for these depend on the nature of the question. So for the question above, minutes might be short term, hours medium term and days long term.

If the question is 'when will I meet Mr Right?', weeks might be short term, months medium term and years long term.

So Frawley says Angular House or Fixed Sign = slow (long term)
Succedent House or Mutable Sign = Medium
Cadent House or Cardinal Sign = Fast (Short Term)

Clearly the combination of Sign and House need to be considered.

Frawley also adds an additional point. For some questions 'volition' needs to be considered, i.e. can the querent do something to hasten the outcome.

As planets in Angular Houses have accidental dignity, this might speed things up if the querent could act in such a way as to effect the outcome and chooses to do so.

On the other hand planets in cadent houses have little accidental dignity and this indicates that the querent has little chance of effecting the outcome even if they choose to act, so in that case being in a cadent house might slow things down a little.

That's clearly requires some application of judgement on the part of the Astrologer.

How may time units are involved is usually taken from the aspect between significators. The key here is to calculate how far the applying planet has to move in order to perfect the aspect. This is not obvious from the chart and requires consulting an ephemeris.

For example if Venus at 4 degrees Libra is applying to Mars at 10 degrees Libra the distance to perfection is NOT 6 degrees (assuming both planets are direct). Mars does not stand still and wait for Venus, so Venus will take more degrees to catch up moving Mars. An ephemeris will tell when and at what degree the aspect is perfected.

The ephemeris will also indicate whether the aspect will be perfected much earlier because Mars turns retrograde and comes to meet Venus or the aspect is NEVER perfected because before Venus catches up Mars, it turns retrograde and moves away. This is called Refrenation.

Minderwiz,

I understand your post.

Again, I must thank you for taking the time to graciously give me a thorough answer.

I must tell you that each post that you write prompts at least 3 new questions in my head... It never stops!! lol

You see for example, in regards to asking about Mr Right (if such a thing exists!! lol).

Let's imagine that the horary chart for such a question would make it so that Mars would be the dispositor of the 12th house and Venus the 6th house. ( for argument sake)

Then, I am confused as to why the astrologer would even look at Mars and Venus to begin with?

Shouldn't we stick to the dispositor of the querent ( ascendant) and Mr. Right ( descendant)?

Anyhow, I'll tell you what : I am going to go ahead and get the books you (and others) have kindly suggested that I read. Perhaps, after that, my incessant questions will be more focused.

You have been quite a wonderful mentor.

Thank you again.

Maggie

This is very helpful, Minderwiz.

One thing that Frawley is at pains to remind his readers is to follow movement. I know it must sound basic to you, but to a beginner like me, it is vital to remember. I find that visualising the movement of planets (with the help of Ephemeris for correctness) helps me "see" the timeframe.

For instance, the other day I cast a horary where the significator was Saturn in the 8th House (ouch - I wasn't the querent, but it hurt on his behalf). Saturn is in Virgo and Rx at the moment. The querent's partner was signified by the Moon (Cancer was on the 7th house cusp), in the 2nd house. There was an opposition forming - Saturn moving very slowly backwards, and the Moon zipping forwards - I could "see" the opposition forming (and suggesting tensions over money/possessions/possessiveness - since he sat in partner's possessions house, and she in his). By checking the ephemeris, I saw they'd meet the next day at 1:30 pm (can't remember the exact time, noted it down).

There was a lot else - some that would not come to pass for some months, as I judged, but I found that by trying to see the planets moving towards each other (or away from each other), I could get a sense of the dynamics at play, the speed or slowness of developments.

Well, I'm very much a learner, but I do use visualisation effectively in many areas of life. I also like to watch the real sky, and the planets and constellations move all the time


I have another question - hope Maggie doesn't mind my asking it here: is it possible to use elements of the Natal chart when reading a horary if they appear relevant to the issue? Or is that mixing apples and oranges?


Another question: to use the Arabic parts in horary - how closely related are they to the people in question? Would the information given by the part of fortune, of the spirit or of marriage in a horary overide or complement what you see of these parts in the Natal chart?

LOL Fudugazi!

I'm happy to see that I am not the only one bustling with questions!

Bless your heart,

Maggie

Maggiemay said:

Shouldn't we stick to the dispositor of the querent ( ascendant) and Mr. Right ( descendant)?

Maggie

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Sorry Maggie, I was using Mars and Venus purely for illustration and not as an example of a Mr. Right horary. I should perhaps have made that clear.

Yes, if you're doing a Mr Right horary then you'd be looking for some link between between the ruler of the Ascendant and the Ruler of the 7th (or the Alumtens of those houses).

Fudugazi,

Going out and looking is an excellent thing to do. It's also worth having a cheap or free Astronomy program that gives you an visualisation of what's going on in the heavens around you and which you can compare to your horary (or other chart)

I can't comment in any detail on the Moon/Saturn opposition but as the opposition sounds as though it's in mutable signs, the timescale would be medium term. The number of degrees that the Moon has to move to perfect the opposition would give you the number of medium time units. So if the medium term is weeks and the Moon has to move 7 degrees then you're going to say 7 weeks as your time estimate. (ignoring house placements for the moment).

Sometimes you may even take the timing as real time, if the crucial aspect will not perfect for three weeks, then that may be your estimate of the timing, assuming it fits the question and context.

Good idea re: the astronomy programme.

Minderwiz said:

I can't comment in any detail on the Moon/Saturn opposition but as the opposition sounds as though it's in mutable signs, the timescale would be medium term. The number of degrees that the Moon has to move to perfect the opposition would give you the number of medium time units. So if the medium term is weeks and the Moon has to move 7 degrees then you're going to say 7 weeks as your time estimate. (ignoring house placements for the moment).

Click to expand...

Thanks, that's very helpful. So the fact that the real opposition took place the following day is irrelevant to the timing of the horary in this case?

What if we don't ignore the house placement?

Sometimes you may even take the timing as real time, if the crucial aspect will not perfect for three weeks, then that may be your estimate of the timing, assuming it fits the question and context.

Click to expand...

OK - so if the crucial aspect is due to take place medium-term, and the signficator is also in a mutable sign, that would "fit" - is that it?

What about retrogrades in all that: do they indicate the significator is somehow going backward towards a position s/he held before? For example - returning to an old job, or changing their mind back to what it was before, etc? Would it then change back again when the planet goes forward? What can the retrograde indicate for the events in question, as well as the timing?

Minderwiz said:

Sorry Maggie, I was using Mars and Venus purely for illustration and not as an example of a Mr. Right horary. I should perhaps have made that clear.

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Oh. I see.

Minderwiz said:

Yes, if you're doing a Mr Right horary then you'd be looking for some link between between the ruler of the Ascendant and the Ruler of the 7th (or the Alumtens of those houses).

Click to expand...

So, if there are no aspects between those two, then we know that we haven't found Mr. Right?

Sounds too easy to be true! lol

Maggie

Back to timing and the movement of planets applied to horary.

I did a Mr Right horary for myself this morning () - actually, I cast a horary about myself and my Beloved from whom I am (by choice) presently separated. He's going through some pretty heavy changes and we both felt he needed space to achieve them. This is made easy by a vast geographical distance between us, though we keep in touch by internet off and on. Anyway, that wasn't the subject of the horary, but rather, I wanted to look at developments between the two of us, with the possibility of a romantic renewal between us.

In the chart, the ruler of the Ascendant (me) is the Sun, placed in the 10th house. I don't know if the fact that he and I met through work has anything to do with that. We no longer work for the same organisation (I have moved on, again by choice). But I am very concerned with all things work/career at the moment. The Sun is at Taurus 7° 18'. The ruler of the 7th house cusp (him) is therefore Saturn (ruler of Aquarius), presently retrograde at Virgo 15° 14' in the 2nd house. He seems concerned about money and his resources.

That means there is an applying trine between the two - Saturn going backwards, and the Sun moving forwards.

Now, the Sun is in an angular house and a fixed sign - that means slowness according to what Minderwiz explained above. Saturn, on the other hand, is in a medium-speed (cadent) house and a medium-speed (mutable) sign. But Saturn itself is a slow planet. Furthermore, it will take the Sun to catch up with Saturn, because although Saturn is going backwards at the moment, it will start going forwards when it hits Virgo 14° 55' in May. However, the Sun will have reached Taurus 14° 55' long before that.

Which would apply in terms of timing? The medium speed or the slow speed? Or do we take an approximation between both?

Another question: if the quesited in a horary is signified by a retrograde planet, what does that means in terms of interpretation - both meaning and timing - if it is linked in an applying aspect to a much faster planet?

From what I can see, this will take time to work itself out - we are talking months, rather than weeks. But the detente and bond signalled by the trine presumably starts to have effect before it perfects, given that the Sun has a very large orb (15-17), and Saturn still a sizeable one (9-10) - in this case there is 7° 56' between them, and the gap is closing.


As well as this the between our two significators, there is an applying square between my significator and the 7th house cusp of the chart (which is at 8° 41' Aquarius). This is a tense aspect, which probably shows the tenseness of the relationship itself (shown by the 7th house cusp) - officially broken up, with continued love and care. Here, presumably, the timing is slow because both signs and houses involved are slow.


This is what Skyscript writes of traditional squares: The square, known as the quartile or quadrate, was not an altogether undesirable aspect. While unable to offer the easy agreement of the trine, the fact that the signs have a strong 'sight' of each other means there is recognition and a flow of power between them. Manilius explains that the trigon's power is greater than the quadrate's, but speaks favourably of them both when he says:

And whatever points joined in a series of four the angle favours, and whatever point the straight line marks in its threefold track . . . upon these has nature bestowed federation and common law, mutual goodwill and rights of friendship with each of her.


The square was only taken as unquestionably damaging when a malefic or unfortunate planet was involved, though many texts speak of the need for reception or some other form of familiarity for there to be a positive influence.


At the same time, there are two applying sextiles between the Mars (at 3° 56' Aries) and Venus (in an applying conjunction to Mars at 00° 54' Aries) with the 7th house cusp. It is at the edge of both these planetary orbs, but it's applying. Mars and Venus are in a fast sign and the medium-speed 9th house. Presumably, therefore, these two sextiles will apply fairly soon? Mars is obviously a dynamic but aggressive force, and here it is in its sign of rulership, so strong; Venus is gentle, but weakened by being in an sign that is far too hot and fiery for her. Not sure what that says for a sextile to the 7th house cusp

I would also say that Venus and Mars being in the 9th house shows that "love and passion" are in a foreign country - which is true for both of us! - and also the potential for conflict.

Interestingly, the ruler of the 10th House - in which my significator finds itself - is none other than Mars itself. The 10th House, from all I've read in Classical astrology, not only rules work, career and the mother, but also the institution of marriage (as opposed to the partnership/emotional/opposition-attraction and open conflict, elements of the 7th house). So here Mars, ruler of the 10th House, is in an applying sextile to the 7th house cusp, 5 degrees apart.


The Moon is at 8° 11' Gemini in the 11th house - so it trines (within 30') the 7th House cusp (it's a busy cusp! ). It's also in an applying square to his significator, 7 degrees apart. In a medium-speed house and medium-speed, it will take - presumably - medium time to perfect??

Do I take the moon as my second significator? How do I work it in here? How do I give it weight when compared to the significator? Which would perfect first - the square between moon and quesited's significator, or trine between my significator and his? Which would be most important?

Incidentally, there is a planet in the 7th house: it is Jupiter, at 23° 26' Aquarius, which sextiles within 18' the 10th House cusp. Jupiter is also the ruler of the 9th house in this chart, which is where I saw Mars and Venus.


Am I seeing a continued period of tenseness coupled with love, followed by a coming together in understanding and an overall detente, with a possibility of officialising our relationship? Is he Mr Right after all, even though he might not be Mr Right Now? . And what of the timings involved in the above-mentioned features? Am I missing something?

I also cast an event chart and horary chart today and just to please Herr Jung's notion of synchronicity, mine aslo have Leo rising and the Sun on the MC., so I guess my chart looks very much like yours, even though the questions are different.

Firstly, his significator and yours are in an applying trine. That suggests a favourable outcome and as Saturn is retrograde, that suggests he will return to you or will 'hurry' back to meet you. Both planets are applying so this muddies the timing.

The Sun's aspect to the seventh cusp might provide some background, a reflection of tension between you but it in no way frustrates the trine being perfected.

In terms of timing, we have the Sun in an Angular house (slow time) and Fixed Sgn (Also Slow). Saturn is in the Second House (Medium term) and Mutable sign (also Medium term) The combination of Long and Medum term suggest a longer time period than medium only. However the double application suggests some speeding up. Moreover as you've both power to act (volition) this would suggest a further speeding up. The Sun must travel some 8 degrees to perfect the Trine. So we're talking 8 time units.

Now from what you've said this isn't a short term job, you suggest months rather than weeks. So that would suggest a favourable resolution in eight months. That seem too long a period given the chart. So medium term is likely to be measured in weeks - so that would give a period of eight weeks.

Now for the fly in the ointment

The Moon will square Saturn before the Sun can perfect the Trine as the Moon is a faster planet and also only has to travel 7 degrees. Does this constitute prohibition?

Normally in a horary the Moon is assigned to the querent (you) so assuming that no third party (currently hidden from view) or organisation is involved (such as a hospital or charity) the question is, can you actully prohibit your own reunion - that is, should we consider this aspect?