Discovering Gébelin!!

Ross G Caldwell

Mabuse said:
It's interesting you bring up Bologna. I am curious as to what extant de Gébelin was influenced, if at all, by Bolognese taromancy.

http://www.tarotpedia.com/wiki/index.php/Bolognese_Tarot_Divination#Three_sources_are_available:

Thanks for linking my article on tarotpedia! I hope to add some layouts to it soon.

I don't think de Gébelin was himself directly influenced by Bolognese taromancy. The tradition in Bologna is very secretive and hasn't really travelled. Also, the taromancy of Bologna has nothing to do with esoteric doctrines about Egypt or anything else; it is pure cartomancy.

Etteilla on the other hand seems to have been taught by cartomancers coming from Piedmont, and some of his meanings for his first cartomancy - with a 32 card regular pack, not a tarot pack - seem related in some indirect way to Bologna.

As far as I know, nobody knows - or has published - anything about regular cartomancy in Bologna - so this is difficult to check.

The important thing about de Gébelin is not that he introduced cartomancy or taromancy - it is clear that it existed earlier - but that he believed that the trumps of the tarot pack were designed millenia ago to convey an ancient and primordial philosophy, and that they were hidden during most of this time as a card game.
 

Mabuse

Wow, I was not aware you were the author.
You are quite welcome. I must say this in an outstanding piece on a topic rarely, if at all, covered elsewhere.

As a whole, I must say the Taropedia has done quite well in presenting its subject matter.
 

Kircher Tree

Bumping this excellent thread, since the Tyson translation is now back on the web:

http://www.donaldtyson.com/gebelin.html

I believe it was unavailable when the posts above were made. It includes (more than two thirds of the way down the page) the essay on Tarot by the Comte de Mellet.

Mellet has an interestingly different take on things compared to de Gébelin, even though his essay was included in de Gébelin's book.

The Arabs communicated this book [We still name Livret aus Lansquenet, or Lands-Knecht, the series of cards that one gives with the deal.] or game to the Spaniards, and the soldiers of Charles V carried it into Germany.
Ever since the Dummett book came out many years ago, it has been the fashion to laugh at and ridicule de Gebuilen and Mellet. But they seem to be reporting from authentic sources in their day. They may yet have the last laugh on their critics.
 

frelkins

Ross G Caldwell said:
As far as I know, nobody knows - or has published - anything about regular cartomancy in Bologna - so this is difficult to check.

But couldn't you learn this just by watching Italian TV? The Italians have at least one fortune-telling tv channel. I have been to Bologna and while the card club is easily found (it has a website) I don't recall seeing any cartomancers, but maybe they would be in the less affluent areas or in those places with retirees. In Naples of course, the fortune-telling is everywhere! But you say that is a different style. . .
 

Ross G Caldwell

frelkins said:
But couldn't you learn this just by watching Italian TV? The Italians have at least one fortune-telling tv channel. I have been to Bologna and while the card club is easily found (it has a website) I don't recall seeing any cartomancers, but maybe they would be in the less affluent areas or in those places with retirees. In Naples of course, the fortune-telling is everywhere! But you say that is a different style. . .

That'd be nice, but I don't get too many Italian channels - do you know which one offhand? (maybe they have a website)

The Bolognese taromancy is more or less by definition limited to Bologna, because it uses the Bolognese tarocchi. Dummett published on Bolognese taromancers in an article in 2004 (in "The Playing Card") and Terry Zanetti published a very full description of some traditional methods (with her own expansions) in 2005 (Vitali and Zanetti, "Il tarocchino di Bologna"). But the tradition is becoming corrupted by printing and foreign cartomantic ideas, as can be seen in Maria Luigia Ingallati's book "Il Tarocco bolognese" (Pendragon, 2000). This is the first publication of any Bolognese tarot divination that I know of, and is the only book on the subject that you could get in Bolognese bookstores when I was there in 2005.

Like you say, cartomancy seems to be well-hidden. I didn't see any cartomancers on the streets, like you do in some places. But I didn't check any listings for them either - next time.

I don't know Naples at all - are the cartomancers/fortunetellers Rom?

Ross
 

frelkins

Ross G Caldwell said:
That'd be nice, but I don't get too many Italian channels - do you know which one offhand? (maybe they have a website)

From memory, I want to say it's a sleazy basic cable gig on Sky Italia, but honestly the production values were so bad, it might a Berlusconi property. Surely Ric from LS can pop in and help us out??

Ross G Caldwell said:
I don't know Naples at all - are the cartomancers/fortunetellers Rom?

Naples is the most awesome city, if only they could get the mafia under control and reduce the corruption. In my experience of Naples (I used to go there every year until the dollar turned to cabbage leaves), fortune-telling is just who the Neapolitans are. Naples was originally founded as an offshoot of Cumae, the Euboean colony - and as you know the Cumaeans were in general famously superstitious, after all that's where the Greek sibyl lived.

So the Neapolitans get their fortune-telling honestly from ancient times. Mostly nowadays you play the lottery. To win at the lottery, you buy dream books at the tobacco store that will tell you what numbers to play based on your dreams. Or elderly Italian grandmas will read the cards for you. And there's said TV.

When I was last in Naples, little old Italian ladies were reading cards outside the cathedral for lottery numbers. And of course you can also go to the catacombs to present offerings to the dead bones in return for lottery luck. I mean this is a city that watches whether St. Gennaro's dried blood liquefies on schedule every year to see if they will win the soccer match. :)

Did I mention how much I love Naples?
 

Inconnu

Thanks to all who provided translations on this thread. I had searched for a translation
of Le Monde Primitif & was unable to find one. I understand the offerings here may not be academic but it is a great help.