Reading Marseille VS RWS

LRichard said:

Any way of doing TdM is okay as long as it steers away from the ideas of crackpots such as Etteilla, Court, Levi, Papus, Mathers, Waite, Crowley, Case, etc. No, I take that back. As a matter of fact, since it is merely a pack of playing cards, any use of it for divination is a compromise of its true identity.

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Woah, woah, woah!

Easy LR. We need to know T H E F U T U R E !!!!

BSwett said:

Woah, woah, woah!

Easy LR. We need to know T H E F U T U R E !!!!

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LOL! I really want to believe in fortune telling, but alas........

Flaxen said:

I found this thread very interesting when starting to explore the TdM and I use many of the attributions especially for the courts.

Like others have mentioned, my style of reading with TdM is much more free flowing and takes account of where people i the cards are looking. I find I interpret the trumps differently - less of the esoteric stuff- they also seem of a different character. Numerology and neo-platonic Christian ideas play more of a role.

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I agree that Melancholic's system is very comprehensive and I used it exclusively for long period of time. I also really enjoy the poetic narrative that Enrique's style brings to tarot reading.

They are both definitely worth looking into, Greatdane.

I do believe that the TdM, with practice and consistency, is infalible at reveling the present and deciphering the answers that hide inside ourselves.
All you need is faith in your very own method of reading them.

The FUTURE on the other hand, as we all know, can only be truly revealed using the RWS (Yellow box version).

LRichard said:

Any way of doing TdM is okay as long as it steers away from the ideas of crackpots such as Etteilla, Court, Levi, Papus, Mathers, Waite, Crowley, Case, etc. No, I take that back. As a matter of fact, since it is merely a pack of playing cards, any use of it for divination is a compromise of its true identity.

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I agree that steering away from the people you mention is a good idea when approaching the TDM. Im just curious how you came to be so convinced that there is no esoteric or astrological or religious or philosophical significance in the trumps at all (If that is in fact your position, thats how your post reads to me).

I agree that to try and establish a clear and unambiguous set or system of meanings is nearly pure speculation, but, for example, to NOT see astrological references in l'etoile, or la lune for example, or some suggestion of meaning in the postures across cards (like the l'empereur and le pendu or the similarities in mood between page/queens and knights/kings and the eye movements) to say nothing of the belly-face and knee-eyes on the devil and so on - to my mind anyway, actually takes effort. There is a lot of specificity in content and borderline canonicity in depiction and form in the trumps which seem to me to be of very debatable value to a simple pack of playing cards.

Just curious, not trying to debate.

Kingdubrock said:

I agree that steering away from the people you mention is a good idea when approaching the TDM. Im just curious how you came to be so convinced that there is no esoteric or astrological or religious or philosophical significance in the trumps at all (If that is in fact your position, thats how your post reads to me).......

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I must confess that my post was a bit tongue-n-cheek. Actually, I think we should be open minded about what factors were influential in the design of the trumps. It is even possible that L'Etoile may have been inspired by the association of Sirius with the flooding of the Nile in (heaven forbid!) Egypt, which easily could have passed from Egypt to southern Europe via Alexandria.

It is probably best not to adopt the canned Rider-Waite divinatory meanings, such as those given in Pictorial Key, especially for the minors, since these conform to certain of Waite's particular agendas. However, wholesale rejection of all philosophical and esoteric significance in the trumps would need to be based on the assumption that we know everything there is to know about how these cards came to be, which obviously we don't.

Personally, I am an esotericist, and my approach to the TdM is anything but mundane.

BSwett said:

I do believe that the TdM, with practice and consistency, is infalible at reveling the present and deciphering the answers that hide inside ourselves.
All you need is faith in your very own method of reading them.

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The FUTURE on the other hand, as we all know, can only be truly revealed using the RWS (Yellow box version).

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For sure! It can even predict who will win the lottery.

LRichard said:

I must confess that my post was a bit tongue-n-cheek. Actually, I think we should be open minded about what factors were influential in the design of the trumps. It is even possible that L'Etoile may have been inspired by the association of Sirius with the flooding of the Nile in (heaven forbid!) Egypt, which easily could have passed from Egypt to southern Europe via Alexandria.

It is probably best not to adopt the canned Rider-Waite divinatory meanings, such as those given in Pictorial Key, especially for the minors, since these conform to certain of Waite's particular agendas. However, wholesale rejection of all philosophical and esoteric significance in the trumps would need to be based on the assumption that we know everything there is to know about how these cards came to be, which obviously we don't.

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I think this is sound advice. Let these two styles of decks be what they are. Different yet somewhat similar.

Personally, I am an esotericist, and my approach to the TdM is anything but mundane.

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I am, and have always been, inclined to seeing the magical in this deck that my historically ingrained ideals have tried to squelch. Though that Bateleur has still remained a bit of a sleight of hand/con-artist guy. The thing is, my view of the Magus and the Bateleur are not at odds with each other, I see them in a similar way. A magician can be a con man, and a con man can be a magician, in so many ways.

Basically, I am saying that I have kept some esoteric/occult ideals in tact, while still using this deck, even if it was made for the purpose of gaming, rather than fortune telling.

prudence said:

I think this is sound advice. Let these two styles of decks be what they are. Different yet somewhat similar.

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I am, and have always been, inclined to seeing the magical in this deck that my historically ingrained ideals have tried to squelch. Though that Bateleur has still remained a bit of a sleight of hand/con-artist guy. The thing is, my view of the Magus and the Bateleur are not at odds with each other, I see them in a similar way. A magician can be a con man, and a con man can be a magician, in so many ways........

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Hermes/Mercury, the prototype for the Magus, is also a trickster.

LRichard said:

any use of it [a deck of tarot cards] for divination is a compromise of its true identity.

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Did not Mr. Waite say something painfully similar to this on one of the pages of the Pictorial Guide?

CED