Where did Waite get these meanings?

ravenest

Please dont get me wrong, Yes my main question was answered, and Auntie s did. Not asking to repeat or rehash, its just LRichard, and Lee brough up some added info. So I am interested, cause it does fit here, doesnt mean we get into the thoth, i just want know more about what LRichard said about the fives and their meanings.

I think the rest of us are fine with the way you choose YOUR thread to run LaForce. Please continue. If its helping you, just continue and ask what you will.
 

ravenest

A big thank you. Okay. I have LRichard information, as resource, andd because astrology today is too much for me, I will check out the older, to camparission with what LRichard said and find how can I say the brain link where I can comprehend and rember. Cause I'm trying to rewire my brain. I not joking I relearn tarot everyday., small amounts I can retain, the rest goes. I am always ready to learn and find creative alternative ways.

Not that I want to deflect but GD astrology has confused a LOT of people ... even modern astrologers. In any case what the GD knew about 'old' astrology has been surpassed nowadays because of research and advances in 'traditional' type astrology - a fairly recent thing ... there are threads on it in the astro forum here ... its complex.
 

La Force

I think the rest of us are fine with the way you choose YOUR thread to run LaForce. Please continue. If its helping you, just continue and ask what you will.

Awesome :) Thanks, It does help, cause I do have not just the RWS deck but clones with different images like the Steampunk Tarot (BM) and they are based off of Waite's meanings too. so if I can wrap my head around it great :)

That's probably off topic, but in a nutshell, the fives, being associated with Geburah (Strength, Sephirah 5), introduce a disruptive influence into each of the suits, a status quo or accustomed state of affairs is being disturbed. Crowley explains that this is not evil in itself: "The natural feeling about it is really a little more than the reluctance of people to get up from lunch and go back to the job." In fact, "Every phenomenon is a sacrament," including disruptive events. In each suit the disruption of the five takes a different form, which Crowley relates to the decans and the characteristics of the corresponding elements.

I read up on the Five's, in the Thoth. I found this very interesting. and in doing so, It just confirmed me thoughts about how Waite's meanings contradict.

5 of Wands - Strife (this card isn't taken in detail) therefore I can't yet comment.

5 of Cups - Disappointment
"as is only natural, because fire delights in superabundant energy, whereas the water of pleasure is naturally placid, and any disturbance of ease can only be regarded as misfortune."

Waite:

"It is a card of loss, but something remains over, it is a card of inheritance, patrimony, transmission, but not corresponding to expectation."

Is Waite calling this card "death" ?

when in fact it is just a small disappointment, like someone cancelling out on plans made, or just being let down by a friend, that feeling of disappointment you have.

If that is the case, then this changes the meaning and therefore the image needs to be changed in RWS deck.

5 of Swords - Defeat

"There has been insufficient power to maintain the armed peace of the four. The quarrel has actually broken out."

"This must mean defeat, for the original idea of the Sword was a manifestation of the result of the love between the Wand and the Cup."

Is this saying it is a Lover's Quarrel?

Waite:
"He is the master in possession of the field". Degradation, destruction, revocation, infamy, dishonour, loss, with the variants and analogues of these.

As you can see Waite make it a two sided meaning or story to the card.

basically an argument has broken out, there is no victor or victim, it is just that an argument, nothing more.

5 of Pentacles - Worry

"The soft quiet of the four has been completely overthrown; the card is called Worry. The idea is of strangling, as dogs worry sheep."

Does this mean Herding? cause sheep dogs herd sheep.

"The economic system has broken down; there is no more balance between the social orders."

This to me means "Chaos". That when economic structure has fallen down in countries, the people go into total social chaos, fights break out, society falls, etc.

"The Disks being as they are, stolid and obstinate, as compared with the other weapons, for their revolution serves to stabilize them, there is no action."

Then does this mean, that the Chaos is here to stay, there isn't resolution to the current state?

Waite: refers to this card as "material trouble" and "Destitution". then Waite adds in Cartomancists: it is a card of Love and Lovers, wife, husband, friend, mistress.


This took me 45 min to type up. sorry I hope it didn't time out for posting, or I have to re-type it.
 

La Force

In regard to these 'mysteries' ...
Waite didn't reveal a lot of it and where he couldn't he seems to have patched 'non-esoteric tarot traditions' or 'his own' mythology to the deck.

Thanks for saying this, you do see what I see, I just had trouble trying to find the right words. I did say that it looked to me "Waite went off on his own tangent".


:) Yeah well , I wanted to keep it simple. There are a range of energies available to Scorpio ... in a way Death card represents all of them and the three Scorpio Minor cards are sections of that energy ... but it will be modified by number of the card as well.

Here are some simple basics for astrology and tarot (and I am sorry if I am getting TOO basic here); Try laying out your deck with the major cards that are attributed to the zodiac in a circle, then outside that lay out the minor cards ( the twos to the tens of each suit) 3 to each sign and visually observe for a while the set up ) again the Thoth deck is easier for this as the titles, the zodiac signs and the planetary symbols are written on them.

Again, trying not to complicate things but in regard to minor card meanings, in other threads we came up with this;

? (Minor cards 'meaning' { or energy or influence} ) = suit ( also the element or 'world') x number ( Kabbalistic sephiroth, 1 - 10 ) x astrological sign (shown on the Thoth card) x decan (as annoted by the planetary symbol on the card)

So it seems a meaning is a combination of suit, number, sign and decan of that sign, some add planet (but it was an inconclusive discussion on that point ). With Waite we have had to add the X factor (that is censorship or concealment and replacement with something else ... for some issues.)

This great, thanks for keeping it simple, if you hadn't I would've been lost forever.

By looking at this, I am still in the stage of Suit + number

4 of Wands = Stable + work = stable work

If I were to then add, Suit + number + Sign

4 of Wands = Stable + work + adventurer = Stable work is adventurous

okay I am lost, that would be way to many words for me to remember, in order to do a reading. and I haven't added the decan or the planet yet, wow, how would I remember all those keywords.

ETA: so after looking at all the stuff you have to add, it would be way to much

Suit + number + Sign + Planet

Wand + Atziluth + number + Chesed + Jupiter + Aries + Venus =

Work + will + Stable + growth + seeks + adventurer + love = work will be stable and grows, you seek adventure and love.

I am sooo lost, that is way to confusing for my brain

I am passing on this, I need an easier method.
 

La Force

Not that I want to deflect but GD astrology has confused a LOT of people ... even modern astrologers. In any case what the GD knew about 'old' astrology has been surpassed nowadays because of research and advances in 'traditional' type astrology - a fairly recent thing ... there are threads on it in the astro forum here ... its complex.

are saying that it would be better to learn the new astrology over the older one, due to the new research and advancement of our technology?

If its really complex I'll pass. as you can see I am not good with it at all, and I am not ashamed to admit it.
 

ravenest

I guess I am saying, why not use Thoth and the keywords that are written on the cards.

NOTE: (and many times different people here have said this to different posters) you dont have to learn everything all at once - it takes time.

If you get to the stage of suit and number , great! In time add another aspect ... let that sink in ... then, if you choose, another aspect. But really, all of this isnt necessasry to learn to be able to read the cards ... its a way of analysing them to extract a system within them for contemplation (and fascination) many people read the cards well without getting into this aspect of them.

I have been reading and studying tarot for a long time .... all this didnt come quick or easy .... I think we all need to remember that when reading peoples comments and insights.

Take it in small comfortable doses and let what you are working with set in courses first before piling more courses on top of the 'wet cement' .

If you do that (and one is reading with Thoth or any other deck that visually displays the extra symbolic info on the cards ) then in time you can incorporate the astrological symbols ... maybe even the Kabbalistic and Hebrew letters ... years later you might get curious and start looking into the GD stuff. Or you might decide at a stage that it is sufficient and you dont need all that extra stuff.

As I said, for me, it was years long process, if I came to tarot now and saw all this before me as something I had to get down now ... I would be in total despair. But I dont think there is a need to get it all down now . Most importantly; have fun with it :)
 

La Force

I guess I am saying, why not use Thoth and the keywords that are written on the cards.

NOTE: (and many times different people here have said this to different posters) you dont have to learn everything all at once - it takes time.

If you get to the stage of suit and number , great! In time add another aspect ... let that sink in ... then, if you choose, another aspect. But really, all of this isnt necessasry to learn to be able to read the cards ... its a way of analysing them to extract a system within them for contemplation (and fascination) many people read the cards well without getting into this aspect of them.

I have been reading and studying tarot for a long time .... all this didnt come quick or easy .... I think we all need to remember that when reading peoples comments and insights.

Take it in small comfortable doses and let what you are working with set in courses first before piling more courses on top of the 'wet cement' .

If you do that (and one is reading with Thoth or any other deck that visually displays the extra symbolic info on the cards ) then in time you can incorporate the astrological symbols ... maybe even the Kabbalistic and Hebrew letters ... years later you might get curious and start looking into the GD stuff. Or you might decide at a stage that it is sufficient and you dont need all that extra stuff.

As I said, for me, it was years long process, if I came to tarot now and saw all this before me as something I had to get down now ... I would be in total despair. But I dont think there is a need to get it all down now . Most importantly; have fun with it :)

Thanks very much Raven, I am glad for this thread, I can clearly see, that I dont reignate with the RWS deck or its clones, just not for me, there is too much inconsitancy, or should I say too many variables that can lead one astray. I thought I would give the deck a chance, etc. Its not going to work. I have to be honest I like my thoth, thothy decks, I should just stick with them. AC opened the can of worms, he doesn't play vague, yes he does add other layers that can be added and studied, as you say. But at leaset his images match the meaning he asigned to each card and he doesnt use contradictions :)

I like the PCSC it is a nice deck, its all the confusion thats embedded in the deck I dont like.

Going to these decks, these speak to me
Thorh
Ludy Lescot (its a thoth clone)
Cosmic Tarot (Its a thoth clone, but it follows the lurianic tree, which isnt GD tree of life)
 

Amber Lamps

Reading "The Key to the Tarot"

1) Read the book.

2) Keep Calm!

3) Write your own book, without spilling the beans, and fade away...
 

Richard

Reading PKT

1) Read the book.

2) Keep Calm!

3) Write your own book, without spilling the beans, and fade away...

4) Don't bother reading it if you are not willing to try to understand it. Otherwise it is a waste of time. Waite poured his soul into that book. He was hampered in ways that most people nowadays cannot understand, namely matters of integrity. In it he systematically destroys the then prevailing myth that Tarot originated in Egypt and was brought to Europe by the Gypsies. And that is not even the best part, which is his explanation of his understanding of the philosophical meaning of the Trumps.

5) I would advise most people: Do not read the book.
 

La Force

1) Read the book.

2) Keep Calm!

3) Write your own book, without spilling the beans, and fade away...

I have lost count how many times I've read Waite's book. The Major Arcana weren't the problem. The Minor Arcana and the Courts were the problem. The courts dont even match up to book T, the knight and Kings are swapped. That to me is a problem alone.

Don't be giving me any more ideas, I have already written a book. I might end up writting another one but without the GD system. See your giving me ideas :D

I have been thinking, hmm maybe it time I finish my tarot deck. I'll be making some changes thats for sure, see if I can fix Waites errors. By following the GD system, hmmm will need to take Raven up on studing the GD. Again I'm thinking out loud :D