Golden Dawn vs. Thelema

foolMoon

Hi All

Another newbie question here. What would be differences of theoretical, practical and ideological details between the two, if any?

Is it also relevant to discuss about Thelema under the Golden Dawn tradition? Or should there be separate forum under Thelema? I welcome your thoughts on this.

cheers

fm.
 

Aeon418

I'm not sure if this will make sense, but here goes...
Another newbie question here. What would be differences of theoretical, practical and ideological details between the two, if any?
For starters comparing the Golden Dawn to Thelema is like comparing apples to oranges. They are not the same thing and so it's not possible to do a direct comparison. The Golden Dawn was/is an essentially Christian themed order. But Thelema is not an order. So direct comparisons are impossible. But the Golden Dawn was/is influenced by Christianity, so it would be valid to compare Christianity to Thelema.
But you can compare the Golden Dawn orders with similar initiatory structures, based on the Qabalistic Tree of Life, that incorporate Thelema. For the sake of argument you can compare a Golden Dawn order with a Thelemic Golden Dawn order.

As already stated the Golden Dawn in it's original manifestation is Christian/Rosicrucian. It's central mystery involves themes of purification through suffering (glorification of suffering), crucifixion, death and resurrection. (See the G.D. 5=6 ceremony)
The initiatory path is represented as an ascent of the Rosicrucian mountain of initiation, Mons Abiegni, with it's summit in Tiphareth - L.V.X.
The concept of crossing the Abyss that lies between the Supernal Sephiroth and the rest of the Tree of Life does not feature in this system. In fact it is considered an impossibility while one is incarnated in a body of flesh.

In an equivalent Thelemic order the themes of purification through suffering are dispensed with. The doctrine of suffering is viewed as a flawed and incomplete perspective when placed in the wider framework of one's Continual Birth.
The initiatory path does not culminate at Tiphareth. The mountain of initiation is now identified with Zion - Binah/Babalon. This means that the Crossing of the Abyss is possible and the formula of L.V.X. is superseded by N.O.X. (Sorry for the technicalities.)

In a nutshell Thelemic initiatory orders that follow a similar Golden Dawn structure, assimilate, correct, and expand upon themes that are already latent with the original G.D. structure. In a way the Thelemic perspective is the logical 'next step' after the original Golden Dawn.
Is it also relevant to discuss about Thelema under the Golden Dawn tradition? Or should there be separate forum under Thelema?
As said above, Thelema and the Golden Dawn are different things. The former is a spiritual philosophy/religion/world view, while the later is an initiatory structure. But it is possible to update the existing Golden Dawn curriculum with Thelemic principles. In fact there are numerous Golden Dawn style orders out there at the moment that have ditched the Christian themes and incorporated Thelema instead.
 

Grigori

Is it also relevant to discuss about Thelema under the Golden Dawn tradition? Or should there be separate forum under Thelema? I welcome your thoughts on this.

The Thoth section may be used for Thelemic and related topics, so would be the best location for such conversations usually. GD Traditions may also be used if the conversation is broader than purely Thelema.

The two locations are intended to be inclusive, so do feel invited to use either as best suits the discussion your like to have :)
 

Barleywine

In an equivalent Thelemic order the themes of purification through suffering are dispensed with. The doctrine of suffering is viewed as a flawed and incomplete perspective when placed in the wider framework of one's Continual Birth.

I'm curious how this squares with the vision in the 13th Aethyr of The Vision and the Voice, where NEMO tends his garden by torturing the roots of the flowers to get them to produce glorious blossoms. Is it purely allegorical or maybe just a play on the Latin word nemo ("no man" or "no one")? Also, Crowley's "cutting exercises" where he tortured himself to train his concentration and self-discipline. Were these divergences from the core of the Thelemic doctrine or just not part of the "wider theme?"
 

Aeon418

I'm curious how this squares with the vision in the 13th Aethyr of The Vision and the Voice, where NEMO tends his garden by torturing the roots of the flowers to get them to produce glorious blossoms. Is it purely allegorical or maybe just a play on the Latin word nemo ("no man" or "no one")?
Torturing? You make it sound like his Compassion is Sadism. He doesn't do what he does for fun. He does exactly what is necessary for the well being of each flower. Only from an outer, superficial level does it appear horrible.
From a certain perspective the 'anointing with oil' is the worst of all of them. ;)

I'm not altogether clear on what you are missing, but I'll take a crack at it. Look at the Universe card. Think of the birth motif. Now look at the four elemental kerubs in the corners of the card that form the Vesica. Those four guys are what most of us identify as ourselves, body, mind, personality self, etc. But in actual fact they are the means, the vehicle which are True Self manifests through. It only becomes an unnecessarily painful birth when we don't dilate enough. But most of us resist Change(Love under Will) and make things difficult for ourselves. The Word of Sin is Restriction.

The Christian crucifixion story is the thematic pattern of how the personality-self experiences this process. The ego struggles away, nailed to that cross, until it finally gives it up. But in the aftermath it suddenly thinks it's been resurrected to a higher plane and evolved. Nope! The personality does not evolve. It just relaxes enough to let more of the True Self be born through it.

This is one reason why Crowley changed the Judgement card to the Aeon with it's birth motif. The Aeon is the 'Next Step' and the next step for humanity is K&C. It's at that specific point that we are ready to begin seeing things in their proper perspective. From the perspective of the sun we were not dying and being resurrected, we were in actual fact continually trying to give birth to ourselves. It's then that we see the true source of all that suffering. From that same perspective the notion that Jesus suffered and so we should all hope to suffer too is a complete nonsense.

Of course even after K&C there is still a way to go before total elasticity is achieved. It is the Master of Temple who completely 'gives it up' and becomes NEMO.

Does that help?
 

Barleywine

Torturing? You make it sound like his Compassion is Sadism. He doesn't do what he does for fun. He does exactly what is necessary for the well being of each flower. Only from an outer, superficial level does it appear horrible.
From a certain perspective the 'anointing with oil' is the worst of all of them. ;)

I'm not altogether clear on what you are missing, but I'll take a crack at it. Look at the Universe card. Think of the birth motif. Now look at the four elemental kerubs in the corners of the card that form the Vesica. Those four guys are what most of us identify as ourselves, body, mind, personality self, etc. But in actual fact they are the means, the vehicle which are True Self manifests through. It only becomes an unnecessarily painful birth when we don't dilate enough. But most of us resist Change(Love under Will) and make things difficult for ourselves. The Word of Sin is Restriction.

The Christian crucifixion story is the thematic pattern of how the personality-self experiences this process. The ego struggles away, nailed to that cross, until it finally gives it up. But in the aftermath it suddenly thinks it's been resurrected to a higher plane and evolved. Nope! The personality does not evolve. It just relaxes enough to let more of the True Self be born through it.

This is one reason why Crowley changed the Judgement card to the Aeon with it's birth motif. The Aeon is the 'Next Step' and the next step for humanity is K&C. It's at that specific point that we are ready to begin seeing things in their proper perspective. From the perspective of the sun we were not dying and being resurrected, we were in actual fact continually trying to give birth to ourselves. It's then that we see the true source of all that suffering. From that same perspective the notion that Jesus suffered and so we should all hope to suffer too is a complete nonsense.

Of course even after K&C there is still a way to go before total elasticity is achieved. It is the Master of Temple who completely 'gives it up' and becomes NEMO.

Does that help?

Yes, the idea of (painfully) "dialating" to let more of the True Self through is a compelling one. My reference to "torturing" was to Crowley's phrase "that root writhes as if in torture," but I figured "as if" was the crux of the whole passage. I wasn't entirely sure whether the "NEMO" implication was at all tongue-in-cheek. I guess not. I don't have any use for the whole "Christian myth," but as an allegory (perhaps a debased one) along the lines you're presenting here, it makes some sense.
 

Aeon418

My reference to "torturing" was to Crowley's phrase "that root writhes as if in torture," but I figured "as if" was the crux of the whole passage.
I place emphasis on "as if" too. NEMO's actions outwardly appear cruel but are in actual fact helpful.

This quote from J. Daniel Gunther's, The Angel and the Abyss, may interest you. (p.195-198)
J. Daniel Gunther said:
Finally, in this threefold Task it is union with the Great Mother Binah that will enable Him to identify Himself with Infinite and Impersonal Love. It is called Infinite and Impersonal for She is the WHORE OF BABALON who unites with all things without the distinction of personality, beyond the limitations of the finite world of man.

This latter aspect of His attainment finds a practical expression in the Work of the Magister in the world of the Actual, as in opposition to the world of the Ideal above the Abyss. He must give His wisdom unto the world and the garden of disciples which He instructs must be tended with Love, but without prejudice or impatience for the day that any of His newly planted ones may reach fruition. As it is written, who can tell upon what day a flower shall bloom? He offers forth the labor but shall not see the reward; His is but to tend the garden, even as the nameless Masters who went before Him have done.

The Vision and the Voice has given Him instruction concerning the fourfold method of tending His garden of disciples. The Hierophantic Method of the process of husbandry utilized is dependent upon the character of the disciple in that garden.

One disciple, by reason of his nature, may require the application of the alchemical Vitriol upon the roots of his life, which are the predispositions formulated in the world of the profane prior to the proclamation of aspiration.

Another disciple may require pruning with the blade of the dagger. The Master gardener prunes His garden to remove dead-wood, to improve and maintain health and increase the yield of fruit by the removal of diseased or dead tissue.

Yet another may require the application of philosophical fire which is another method for achieving the same end. Alternately, the philosophical fire may be applied for an entirely different reason, according to the nature of the Neophyte and by reason of the Alchemical axiom of Democritus who said, Da ignem igni Mercurium Mercurio & sufficit tibi.

Lastly, in tending His garden, the Magister may anoint a certain disciple with Oil. The Holy Oil is emblematic of Grace and the Chrism of the Holy One, a gift which originates from above. Frater Perdurabo said, unless the Magician be anointed with this Oil, all his work will be wasted and evil, that is to say, such work will not be correctly dedicated toward the One Purpose. The disciple of the Master who receives this chrism should remember the rabbinic tradition of shemen ha-mishchah, ShMN HMShChH, the "oil of anointing" which designated one as QDSh, Qadosh, "most Holy." It was used only on those set apart for Holy Service. Those who have received this sacred anointing may come to perceive that this is the least merciful of all the Hierophantic methods of the Magister, for it unfailingly affirms that the one so anointed treads the Path that is both beautiful and terrible, the Path of Sacred Service to Mankind that leads ultimately to the lonely frontier of the Abyss.
 

foolMoon

The Thoth section may be used for Thelemic and related topics, so would be the best location for such conversations usually. GD Traditions may also be used if the conversation is broader than purely Thelema.

The two locations are intended to be inclusive, so do feel invited to use either as best suits the discussion your like to have :)

Thank you Grigori for your clarification on this issue. :)
 

foolMoon

I'm not sure if this will make sense, but here goes...

For starters comparing the Golden Dawn to Thelema is like comparing apples to oranges. They are not the same thing and so it's not possible to do a direct comparison. The Golden Dawn was/is an essentially Christian themed order. But Thelema is not an order. So direct comparisons are impossible. But the Golden Dawn was/is influenced by Christianity, so it would be valid to compare Christianity to Thelema.
But you can compare the Golden Dawn orders with similar initiatory structures, based on the Qabalistic Tree of Life, that incorporate Thelema. For the sake of argument you can compare a Golden Dawn order with a Thelemic Golden Dawn order.

As already stated the Golden Dawn in it's original manifestation is Christian/Rosicrucian. It's central mystery involves themes of purification through suffering (glorification of suffering), crucifixion, death and resurrection. (See the G.D. 5=6 ceremony)
The initiatory path is represented as an ascent of the Rosicrucian mountain of initiation, Mons Abiegni, with it's summit in Tiphareth - L.V.X.
The concept of crossing the Abyss that lies between the Supernal Sephiroth and the rest of the Tree of Life does not feature in this system. In fact it is considered an impossibility while one is incarnated in a body of flesh.

In an equivalent Thelemic order the themes of purification through suffering are dispensed with. The doctrine of suffering is viewed as a flawed and incomplete perspective when placed in the wider framework of one's Continual Birth.
The initiatory path does not culminate at Tiphareth. The mountain of initiation is now identified with Zion - Binah/Babalon. This means that the Crossing of the Abyss is possible and the formula of L.V.X. is superseded by N.O.X. (Sorry for the technicalities.)

In a nutshell Thelemic initiatory orders that follow a similar Golden Dawn structure, assimilate, correct, and expand upon themes that are already latent with the original G.D. structure. In a way the Thelemic perspective is the logical 'next step' after the original Golden Dawn.

As said above, Thelema and the Golden Dawn are different things. The former is a spiritual philosophy/religion/world view, while the later is an initiatory structure. But it is possible to update the existing Golden Dawn curriculum with Thelemic principles. In fact there are numerous Golden Dawn style orders out there at the moment that have ditched the Christian themes and incorporated Thelema instead.


Thank you Aeon418 for your clear explanation. Very informative and helpful. :)
 

ravenest

First, there is more than one Thelemic system designed by Crowley. They still have Thelemic philosophy and adaptations, but come from different angles.


'Sacrifice' is still relevant in both systems; the GD version is R+C based and Christian, the Thelemic version is R+C based and .... Thelemic :)

The sacrificial aspect in Themela, as Crowley outlined it in some of his rituals seems more like Buddhism ; 'glorification' isnt achieved BY suffering, glorification comes after elimination of processes that 'holds one back'.

Again, if one is attached to the old, elimination can seem suffering, but if one is attached to the new , and realises the dynamic it isnt suffering at all. So I dont think 'suffering' is key, suffering is the outlook, the process is the key.

In one of his R+C rituals , symbolising part of the post-mortem experience, the suffering represents the 'uprising' and elimination ( or triumph over) aspects of the personality, unconscious, etc. that arise after the 'first death' and the first 'false (illusory ) glorification' . In Buddhism these must be transcended while in the post mortem state ( see The Tibetan Book of the Dead ).

One can then move on to the next stage or return as a Bodhisatva (or Rosicrucian) to assist others to attain that level (or devote oneself to good works in society - eg healing and medicine ). Hence, as Crowley stated, this is the 'general stopping place' as further progress requires great devotion and renunciation.

He outlined the process in his translation of Levi's 'Hymn of Honorius'

"O Lord, deliver me from hell's great fear and gloom!
Loose thou my spirit from the larvae of the tomb!
I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

I bid the night conceive the glittering hemisphere.
Arise, O sun, arise! O moon, shine white and clear!
I seek them in their dread abodes without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

Their faces and their shapes are terrible and strange.
These devils by my might to angels I will change.
These nameless horrors I address without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light.

These are the phantoms pale of mine astonied view,
Yet none but I their blasted beauty can renew;
For to the abyss of hell I plunge without affright:
On them will I impose my will, the law of light. "

One that cannot transcend the 'dread abodes' becomes stuck in 'suffering' being persecuted by the forces of one's own 'astonied view'.

So the dynamic is still present, but it is understood differently - the Thoth deck still has the Hanged Man card.


Another difference is the GD being Christian / Osirian is the view on rebirth associated with the belief of the Sun going under the earth and being reborn. In one of Crowley's ritual systems - the OTO - he addresses this; the beginning rituals are of the Osirian formula (as the enrgy is still current in the world and most of us have been influenced by the paradadigm, so it is important to understand it ), but he also states very clearly in the ritual at the end of this 'earth' cycle that moden science has shown this is not the case.

The earth rotates so that some of us are in its shadow side away from the sun, he invites one to meditate on the significance of this discovery and how it might change the formula.