XVIIII Le Soleil

ihcoyc

If my scanner weren't broken, I would. At any rate, some of the cards can be seen at Mark Filipas's site, at his review:

http://www.spiritone.com/~filipas/Masquerade/Reviews/paris.html

I will try to refer to this deck as Parisian Tarot from now on. The box says "Tarot de Paris," and I cut out the sample card from the cigarette-pack box they came in and pasted it on top of the box I now keep them in, so it's still Tarot de Paris in my mind. Now there's another Tarot de Paris, and there does need to be a way to keep them straight.
 

jmd

The title Tarot de Paris remains to my mind correct, as this was the one under which it was published. Volume three of the Encyclopedia of Tarot also calls it this (though the earlier two volumes do not).

Thanks also for the link. On a different note, some of you may be pleased to hear that Mark Filipas is one of the speakers who will be at the Conference in Melbourne in 2005 - to which I'm really looking forward to.

Just to be different, I've attached the Fournier published version of the card. On this one, the space between the legs is certainly consistent with what you would expect: the wall is clearly visible as expected.

It is also worth noting the variation in the number of droplets - if that is what they are. Unlike what has been mentioned before (I recall by Supletion), this deck seems to represent two drops upon/linking the two figures, with a total of seventeen. It is, however, quite a strange representation, for the left-hand figure appears to have three arms, and the right-hand one only one.

As in many decks, it seems that the left-hand side figure's left hand touches what can at times be perceived as an opening upon the torso of the right-hand figure, virtually implying that his chest is rendered from top to bottom, and his heart open. Could this human open-ness to the loving touch of another also in ways indicate that the greater Light, when illuminating our work, leads to higher wisdom?

Whereas VI the Lover's card implied, at least for some of us, a decision or choice, this touching seems to be from an open innocence, from which great works can occur (whether the building of Rome or of something even greater!).

Attached, then, is a Fournier version.
 

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jmd

I think it was in the thread on VII - Le Chariot in which I mentioned that I would make a comment about the Corpus Hermeticum or Hermetica (which includes the Asclepius) when reaching this card. Quite frankly, I had forgotten until discussions in the more recent Difference between Wirth and Marseilles? thread somehow triggered some memory.

It should be remembered that the Hermetica, or at least parts of it, was studied and in many ways revered even back in the tweflth century. But it probably is in the fifteenth that it became of prominence again. Earlier, St Augustine makes reference to (and even quotes parts of) it. Hermes was also reverred as a living figure predating possibly Moses. If I remember correctly, Ficino, in his Pimander (circa late 15th C.) dates him so.

In 1488, Giovanni di Stefano, according to some, erected an image of Hermes in the Cathedral of Siena.

Earlier, the various 'heresies' of the Waldenses, the Cathars and the Bogomils were common enough - and even reigned and numerous regions - ranging from Germany, down to, significantly, Northern Italy, and of course the Langue d'Oc regions - amongst others.

Copernicus, who lived between the late 15th and early 16th century, is often claimed to be the first person to present a full Heliocentric universe (some ancient Greeks had postulated a partial Heliocentric one).

But let us get to the Hermetica:
XVI (2) [...] The very quality of the speech and the sound of Egyptian words have in themselves the energy of the objects they speak of.
In some ways, we need to go no further than this portion of the text to understand the significance placed on the search for ancient Egypt magic if the veracity of the text is assumed - which it was by many. But let us continue the text:
[...] For the Greeks have empty speeches, O king, that are energetic only in what they demonstrate, and this is the philosophy of the Greeks, an inane foolosophy of speeches. We, by contrast, use not speeches but sounds that are full of action.
Here again, the text suggests that though there is recognition of the Greek in its demonstration of Ancient wisdom, the very sounding of the words, in Egyptian, contains a creative act. All this section deals with the Being of the Sun, to which at least some mediaeval Christians associated with the Christ, the divine Craftsman. The text, of course, does not mention Christ - that was for later interpreters:
[...] (5) In this way, the craftsman (I mean the sun) binds heaven to earth, sending essence below and raising matter above, attracting everything toward the sun and around it, offering everything from himself to everything, as he gives freely of the ungrudging light. For it is the sun whence good energies reach not only through sky and air but even to earth and down to the nethermost deep and abyss.

[...] (7) But a vision of the sun is not a matter of guesswork. Since it is the visual ray itself, the sun shines all around the cosmos with the utmost brilliance, on the part above and on the part below. For the sun is situated in the centre of the cosmos, wearing it like a crown.
Or was Copernicus the first to postulate the centrality of the Sun? Here, also, practical Kabbalists would have taken note, for where wisdom is mentioned, whether as Sophia or not, cHokmah would have been understood, or at least linked. And now we continue with the very beneficiant effects of the Sun, first mentioned above, and which the card itself seems very much to contain:
[...] (8) [...], the sun enlivens and awakens, with becoming and change, the things that live in these regions [in water, on earth and in air] of the cosmos. (9) It brings transmutation and transformation among them, as in a spiral, when change turns one thing to another, from kind to kind, from form to form, crafting them just as it does the great bodies. For the permanence of every body is change: in an immortal body the change is without dissolution; in a mortal body there is dissolution. [...]
Such text would have, at the very least, both rendered the importance of the Ancient Egyptian, support for the concept the power of the word - indicated in St John's Gospel, and, unfortunately, the very real eventual heretical charges first implied by St Augustine.

If those who were viewed or in any way used Tarot were also even partially acquainted with this body of work, and attached to it the significance which many did, then how deeper suddenly becomes this image - and by association, all others!

It should also be considered, in my view, that, as we live in an over-abundant word-oriented society (we cannot go anywhere without 'meaningful' text being presented to our eyes), so did the late mediaevalists and renaissance dwellers live, on the whole, in meaningful image rich environments - the Tarot being only part of the rich tapestry.
 

Eberhard

XVIIII Le Soleil and its colored rays

I wonder what the groups of colored main rays mean:

- the Hadar has a blue, red, and yellow 5-pointed star intertwined
- the Marteau/Grimaud has a similar pattern, however on the yellow star the rays roughly pointing to 2h and 7h are white
- on the Camoin and the LoScarabeo Conver the main rays consist of a yellow and a red 8-pronged star interleaved.

Even Carole Sédillot who elaborates on each and any tiny detail only mentions the 75 rays in total.
 

Rusty Neon

No one can have the right answer to this question, as there can't be a right answer on the symbology of the TdM.

However, for what it's worth ....

(1) Paul Marteau isn't superhelpful on the subject of the rays. Speaking in the context of the Marteau/Grimaud deck, he says that the rays "... sont de toutes couleurs pour manifester l'universalité de leur harmonie".

(2) Alain Bocher (in Les Cahiers du Tarot, Vol. 1), speaking in the context of the Héron TdM deck (Conver 1760):

- The undulating rays are yellow "pour nous faire comprendre qu'il sont porteurs de LUMIÈRE".

- The straight rays are red "pour bien nous faire savoir qu'ils sont CHALEUR".

Unusually for Bocher, those are relatively mundane interpretations, as he normally interprets the details of the TdM cards a lot more esoterically.

(Note: The caps are Bocher's, not mine. Throughout his book, Bocher does that on average 7 times per page for effect.)

(3) Marcel Picard gives quite a detailed answer, in the context of the Grimaud deck and its Marteau colours, rather than the Conver 1760 deck and its colours.
 

jmd

In the two above posts are three books I as yet do not have... and have difficulty in obtaining (only the Marteau do I have).

What I find, on reflecting on the card, quite significant is this alternation between the undulating and the straight. This, combined with Bocher's comment quoted by Rusty Neon, makes for interesting reflection.

These are the carriers of Light and Life (esoterically, heat and Life may at times be interchanged). The Sun, then, is not only the Light of the World, but the Life of the World, which shines its benign influence on all under its rays, be they male or female (the two individuals).

Colour symbolism, given the variety found in various decks, and though important, I at times hesitate on, for I have yet to decide which coloured version is for me is a better reflection of what I may personally deem the Ür-Tarot. :)
 

Rusty Neon

Eberhard ... Any comments on my post and on jmd's? After all, we did take the trouble to respond to your question.
 

Eberhard

Rusty Neon, this came a bit unexpected to me, it reminds me of the games on usenet years ago where some guys always tried to define the rules of the game ...

I thought I would better not clutter the space by speculations and repeating what was said already. Obviously, the rays question has no answer in the books; if it had been so, RTFM would apply and I would not have asked.

Why the ray are not mentioned explicitely, I don't know, perhaps it is uninteresting, but then, why did the restorers change the original patterns?

Anyway, thanks for your input.
 

Rusty Neon

Eberhard ... I realize you're new around here. However, why dis people who, in good faith, have taken the time out to attempt to answer your question?

P.S.: As noted in my first post, all three of the authors I cited _do_ explicitly mention the rays.
 

Eberhard

Rusty Neon, I tried to send you a mail which was rejected because your mailbox is full.

So, again in the open: if you awaited a thank you for looking up infos and me not even giving a thank you, I apologize.

You certainly had better work to do, however, I was disappointed that the rays had no solutions immediately digestible, but perhaps it only shows that this is not important. Contrary to the colors of garments where you have certain directions like inwards/outwards, top/down, etc. the explanations in the quotes offered are much more abstract here. (ask me in a year again ;-) If one has a look at, for ex., at the Visconti or even the Wegener Egyptian design the shapes of the sun rays do not seem to bear a meaning at all. That is why I feel clueless whether these rays belong to the core set of the XVIIII at all.

Edited: here is a link to the Ibis Tarot Sun

OK, me being dumb rookie, better silent for now, listen to wise old men for another year or so ;-)