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Late Ascendant horary chart

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Ronia  Ronia is offline
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Late Ascendant horary chart


Hi everyone,

I'm looking at a horary chart here with a late ascendant - 28.59 Taurus. I know the general rules re: meaning of early and late ascendants in horary but they don't apply here. I cannot figure out what a late ascendant would mean when the question is "Will he respond by the end of the week?", the question is of great interest and I don't know the answer. I am not testing the waters. I need to know as it's a legal matter, therefore Moon in Libra is appropriate.

What would be your take if the usual meanings of late ascendant in horary do not apply?

FYI, the chart was cast on January 28, 2016 at 12:14 pm in Toronto.
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Etene  Etene is offline
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I know the software I've been using is rubbish, but for that time and place (Assuming GMT-0500), it shows 2859' Taurus. At least it doesn't matter much for significators, since both indicate Venus, however it may matter between the moveable and fixed signs.
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Originally Posted by Etene View Post
I know the software I've been using is rubbish, but for that time and place (Assuming GMT-0500), it shows 2859' Taurus. At least it doesn't matter much for significators, since both indicate Venus, however it may matter between the moveable and fixed signs.
LOL You're absolutely right, Etene! I was looking at Venus and the Moon in Libra and wrote this meanwhile. Yes, it is Taurus. The rest remains true though.

There is an upcoming sextile between Venus and Mars and normally I'd say yes, he will respond but this late Ascendant is bothering me. The Moon will square Venus first but I don't think I'd be in my own way as the response is extremely important to me and I wouldn't jeopardize the outcome in any way. The Moon is also L3 which is indeed about communication. The square includes Venus receiving the Moon from Libra and Libra is appropriate for legal matters. The question is do I have a radical chart or not and what the late ascendant could mean in this case.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
Hi everyone,

I'm looking at a horary chart here with a late ascendant - 28.59 Libra. I know the general rules re: meaning of early and late ascendants in horary but they don't apply here. I cannot figure out what a late ascendant would mean when the question is "Will he respond by the end of the week?", the question is of great interest and I don't know the answer. I am not testing the waters. I need to know as it's a legal matter, therefore Libra on the ascendant is appropriate.

What would be your take if the usual meanings of late ascendant in horary do not apply?

FYI, the chart was cast on January 28, 2016 at 12:14 pm in Toronto.
Well I can think of one 'general rule' which might apply. The matter has passed beyond the point where judgement can be made. That could be that he had already responded when you cast the chart but as yet you are unaware of the response (the response is 'in transit'). Time will tell on that one.

Another possibility is that the degree has special significance to you. I know it's not the degree of your Ascendant/Descendant, or MC/IC but it might have other significance - his Ascendant/Descendant MC/IC or those from the chart of your son. Those aren't the only possibilities but you get the idea.
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This is about my lawyer, Minderwiz. He stopped responding to me (two weeks ago!) and at a very important point! I called his assistant but it didn't change anything. I'm not sure how his ascendant or even less so, my son's, would be relevant and I have nothing at this degree, as you know. If he had responded I would have already got it as he would either write an e-mail or call.

In my opinion none of the general rules applies and that's why I asked. In these times of instant communication, a response I wouldn't know about is highly improbable. Then I don't know the answer. Then if anything had been decided I would have been informed, therefore this doesn't apply either.

On a closer look, with Saturn in the 7th as well, despite being relevant as L9, the chart may not be radical at all and my judgement is most probably wrong. I'll still wait and see till Sunday. If anything happens, I'll write an update.
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Well you cast the chart on the 28th and as I write it's 0:17 a.m. on the 29th UT, so if he wrote a letter at 10 am local time and had it posted to you, it would still be in transit and when you cast your chart the question was too late. I'm not saying that was what has happened, merely advancing it as a possibility which meets the general rules.

You didn't actually say who 'he' was in the question but did specify that it was legal in nature. I know you are in a legal issue over your son with your ex. So if the second possible explanation would hold, the your son's chart would be only relevant if the legal issue was pertinent to him. If it's about another matter entirely then it would not be relevant and it would be most unlikely that you noted the time when you first engaged the lawyer, so we may never know if that possible reason for a valid chart exists.

There's nothing stopping you reading the chart. They are considerations, not tests of validit[y

PS Why is Libra appropriate to legal matters?
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Because it is about relations of all kinds, positive and negative, and I don't use the whole "love, pigeons and roses" thing now associated with Libra. Libra is also the sign of war and conflicts as certain types of relation between people. A legal dispute is a conflict. It is also about justice in the sense of balance between dualities and fairness. Again associated with legal matters and the concept of justice.

I am not saying the dispute is not about something related to my son but don't think my son's chart would be reflected in a chart about the missing lawyer. LOL. And in fact, my son doesn't have anything in this degree either. I didn't specify who "he" is because I was interested in deciphering a late ascendant when the general meanings do not apply. Regardless who he is.

The possibility of a letter written and mailed to me, a regular one, doesn't fit his style as he communicates with me via e-mails. Why would he suddenly write a regular letter? Nope, there must be another reason for the current lack of communication.

I don't think I should count on a chart with both late ascendant and Saturn in the 7th. If I do read it despite both considerations, then there is an upcoming sextile between the significators because I don't think the Moon as my co-significator and my actions will sabotage the desired by me outcome. What I dislike is that the Sun will square Mars (him) at the same time as Venus sextiling him.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
I am not saying the dispute is not about something related to my son but don't think my son's chart would be reflected in a chart about the missing lawyer. LOL. And in fact, my son doesn't have anything in this degree either. I didn't specify who "he" is because I was interested in deciphering a late ascendant when the general meanings do not apply. Regardless who he is.
I advanced your son's chart merely as a possible connection to a late Ascendant, if it doesn't contain such a degree, then there'snot a connection and it can be set aside. On reflection, I'd probably also include the degree of the Lord of the Ascendant and possibly the Lot of Fortune (as this is an environmental influence) but no such degree = not a reason for the late Ascendant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
The possibility of a letter written and mailed to me, a regular one, doesn't fit his style as he communicates with me via e-mails. Why would he suddenly write a regular letter? Nope, there must be another reason for the current lack of communication.
Fair point I could see the possibility of him writing to you (Lawyers tend to do this for formal comuunications) in which case there is a possibility (not a probability) that you cast the chart after a letter was dispatched but before it was received. I agree that's unlikely but it could give a 'general rule' that fits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
I don't think I should count on a chart with both late ascendant and Saturn in the 7th. If I do read it despite both considerations, then there is an upcoming sextile between the significators because I don't think the Moon as my co-significator and my actions will sabotage the desired by me outcome. What I dislike is that the Sun will square Mars (him) at the same time as Venus sextiling him.
I don't think Saturn in the seventh is a consideration. The question is about your lawyer and he's ninth house (a professional adviser) Capricorn is on the cusp of the ninth, so Saturn signifies the lawyer. Saturn's condition might give you some clues about why you haven't yet received a reply but that's simply a suggestion.

I know you use Regiomontanus and that would put your significator Venus, in the eighth. I cast the chart using Whole Signs, and found Saturn in the eighth in either case one of the significators has a lot of trouble making effective action.

In my chart Venus is in the ninth (the Lawyer's house) and you seem to have (rightly) bombarded the Lawyer's office for some form of response. So either you are not putting your point across effectively or there's something causing his delay I'd hazard a guess that as Saturn is Peregrine in Sagittarius and in the fifth (both charts), he needs some form of help or guidance (possibly on a point of law or legal procedures). You would normally look to his ruler, Jupiter, to see if the help was going to be forthcoming, unless the Moon or Mercury was involved. Jupiter is a natural significator of the Law (which is appropriate) and Jupiter is Retrograde in its Detriment and in the fifth. Whilst thie condition of Saturn suggests a problem with the lawyer, the nature of that problem is speculative and therefore not necessarily helpful in answering your question.

That still doesn't explain the late Ascendant (well I can think of ways that it might but they are only speculation). Personally, I'd have read the chart, noting the late Ascendant (which fits into a context of last minute, delay and obstruction). I'm not convinced it's a valid chart but for my personal use, I'd accept it and note what the outcome actually was, compared to what I thought the chart suggested.

The Moon/Venus square promises something but not without difficulty and delay, so you might get something on the last minute.

Digression on Libra

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
Because it is about relations of all kinds, positive and negative, and I don't use the whole "love, pigeons and roses" thing now associated with Libra. Libra is also the sign of war and conflicts as certain types of relation between people. A legal dispute is a conflict. It is also about justice in the sense of balance between dualities and fairness. Again associated with legal matters and the concept of justice.
I agree with you about love, pigeons and roses But the attribution of relationships of all kinds is a modern one, taken from Leo's conflations of sign and ruler. Venus has to do with relationships of all kinds. The balance or scales is more likely a reference to trade and commerce, where the balance was necessary to weigh commodities and indeed payments. Trade and Commerce are Venus occupations and very dependent on relationships. Early attributions to Libra are fruit, olives, wine, aromatic unguents, perfumed substances and food (all of which were the subject of developed trade) but there's no reference to conflicts or justice (which are Mars and Jupiter respectively). Yes I know things get bolted on and that Libra is the opposite sign to Aries but sometimes looking at original meanings can be helpful. To use the later language, Libra is a humane sign, one connected with civilised human behaviour and that I think leads to the bolt on of relationships.

Incidentally, I've not come across an early text which explains why the balance is the symbol of Libra. My comment on trading was speculation but at that time, that would be the first connection made by people. The metaphorical use as weighing the evidence in a court case depends on the use of the balance as a weighing device and that is trade related.

However that's a little beside the point here
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Ronia  Ronia is offline
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Significators


Minderwiz, I will address your other points later but here I'd like to note that in the previous charts you read on legal matters, mine and one other person's, you explained the lawyer would be 2nd house. I had used the 9th but it seemed to be wrong. Here I named my lawyer, I asked will he... name... respond and I am a bit reluctant to use the 9th, I used the 7th. It is not just any lawyer, it is him,by name, one I know personally and well already. However, I absolutely see how L9 could be used in the 7th, so I'll revise later. The question on choosing proper significator remains, though. Why did you use the L2 before or rather was it only the kind of questions we had asked then that led to using L2 for lawyer? It was just a week or two ago in the Answers thread, for reference.

Saturn cannot be in the 5th, even in whole signs. Mars?

I did bombard him with emails because one of the issues is time sensitive and his behaviour at this point is quite unacceptable, actually. There is also a document that needs to be revised and re-signed by me and this is also to be done now. It is a very odd situation as he has always been extremely quick in getting back to me and always prompt and he is a very good lawyer. It is odd and uncharacteristic. Even more so after I called his office last week and his assistant left him a note and she is also very efficient. I don't know what to think. We argued on something before he stopped communicating but it was a minor issue and I wouldn't even think it professional if he would treat me like that only because I disagreed on something rather small and insignificant for the whole case.

A written letter is out of the question, believe me. Except if he has chosen to fire me as a client, in which case I should have known already.

If the chart describes the situation well in whole houses, that would be odd as it should matter that I use Regiomontanus. I mean, the chart I cast should speak truthfully in the house system I use to cast it or it's not to be read, imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minderwiz View Post

I agree with you about love, pigeons and roses But the attribution of relationships of all kinds is a modern one, taken from Leo's conflations of sign and ruler. Venus has to do with relationships of all kinds. The balance or scales is more likely a reference to trade and commerce, where the balance was necessary to weigh commodities and indeed payments. Trade and Commerce are Venus occupations and very dependent on relationships. Early attributions to Libra are fruit, olives, wine, aromatic unguents, perfumed substances and food (all of which were the subject of developed trade) but there's no reference to conflicts or justice (which are Mars and Jupiter respectively). Yes I know things get bolted on and that Libra is the opposite sign to Aries but sometimes looking at original meanings can be helpful. To use the later language, Libra is a humane sign, one connected with civilised human behaviour and that I think leads to the bolt on of relationships.

Incidentally, I've not come across an early text which explains why the balance is the symbol of Libra. My comment on trading was speculation but at that time, that would be the first connection made by people. The metaphorical use as weighing the evidence in a court case depends on the use of the balance as a weighing device and that is trade related.

However that's a little beside the point here
Just to address the Libra issue. Well, first of all we don't all use the same system and I, for one, don't stick to any system particularly except from my own. While I read old texts, and especially so in horary, I don't necessarily agree with all that ancient astrologers thought. With Venus particularly, and her rulerships, I differ from their point of view, which I find limiting, at best. I disagree that with both Taurus and Libra she would be ruling material stuff as Libra doesn't fit in my own perspective as a materialistic sign to the point Taurus is or I should rather say, in the way Taurus is. Merchants, perfumes, beauty stuff, this is so ... superficial, I just don't take it as a gospel. In my own understanding Taurus is about the everyday stuff and materialistic security and values and much about other things too but they are all more pragmatic. Libra, not so. Being an air sign doesn't fit into this scheme either. Just my personal way of seeing things. And I do see Libra as a sign of relations, not necessarily relationships. While Mars is about the act of war, I do see Libra as the diplomacy or lack of such that leads to or resolves conflicts. I also see the weighs as a symbol of balance, regardless if they are used to measure sugar or people's opinions. As I've said before, I do apply a lot of old symbolism in my astrology endeavours and I seek my own truth somewhere in between all the writings of other people.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia View Post
Minderwiz, I will address your other points later but here I'd like to note that in the previous charts you read on legal matters, mine and one other person's, you explained the lawyer would be 2nd house
In a court case, your lawyer is indeed second house (assuming you take the first). Similarly the other person's lawyer would take the eighth. However out of court, where you are consulting a lawyer for legal advice and representation, he or she is ninth house. They are offering professional services on a matter that may not come to court. Now if your case is underway, that's a different matter and he's second house. But if your case is underway, then his behaviour is beyond 'unacceptable' and into professional negligence.

So what matters here is the situation the lawyer is in. As you are waiting to here from him, rather than him acting for you in court (as far as the question is concerned) , I took his role as that of a professional adviser. If you had asked what will be the outcome of the case, then he's definitely second house.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
I had used the 9th but it seemed to be wrong. Here I named my lawyer, I asked will he... name... respond and I am a bit reluctant to use the 9th, I used the 7th. It is not just any lawyer, it is him,by name, one I know personally and well already.
Were you thinking of him as primarily someone you know or as your lawyer. In a question that runs, 'Will my sister, Anna X, do so and so' I take the relationship of sister to override the fact that the person is named and I use the third. Similarly for 'my friend Anna' I would use the eleventh The relationship is clear.

Now in this case if your question was 'will X respond' it's not so obvious. If I'd been taking the question, I would want to know who X was and in what capacity he was acting before I chose the relevant house for the quesited. You of course knew who he was and in what capacity he was acting. Personally, I'd have used the ninth as that is more fitting to his role in the context of the question. However I can see why you went for the seventh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
Saturn cannot be in the 5th, even in whole signs. Mars?
Quite right. I did say that in my chart Saturn was in the eighth, but when I was moving on to discuss Saturn's ruler (a possible helper, I did say fifth. I meant Jupiter, Saturn's ruler was in the fifth. Jupiter being a natural significator of the law and being in the house of children.

Like you, earlier in the thread, I was thinking of something else when I typed the sign name LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
I did bombard him with emails because one of the issues is time sensitive and his behaviour at this point is quite unacceptable, actually. There is also a document that needs to be revised and re-signed by me and this is also to be done now. It is a very odd situation as he has always been extremely quick in getting back to me and always prompt and he is a very good lawyer. It is odd and uncharacteristic. Even more so after I called his office last week and his assistant left him a note and she is also very efficient. I don't know what to think. We argued on something before he stopped communicating but it was a minor issue and I wouldn't even think it professional if he would treat me like that only because I disagreed on something rather small and insignificant for the whole case.
Yes, that is very odd behaviour, as I said above it's almost verging on professional negligence (or it would be if he now appeared in court without addressing your issues). It's almost as though he was deliberately choosing not to communicate with you - which might possibly explain the late ascendant, because the question was moot. I think you really need a face to face meeting with him and PDQ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
A written letter is out of the question, believe me. Except if he has chosen to fire me as a client, in which case I should have known already.
I can see that as a risk but he has to communicate with you and provide some reason. An argument over minor matters is not acceptable. He's your employee, at least in terms of the case, his duty is to follow your instructions, unless you put him in a position where he would have to act illegally or unprofessionally. Of course it's his duty to give you the best advice he can, but you can insist that he acts in a particular way or you fire him, not the other way around.

There's definitely something odd going on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronia
If the chart describes the situation well in whole houses, that would be odd as it should matter that I use Regiomontanus. I mean, the chart I cast should speak truthfully in the house system I use to cast it or it's not to be read, imo.
Yes, it should. Using Regiomontanus, it's your significator, Venus that's in the eighth. It does have some essential dignity, ruling the Earth triplicity by day but it's in an ineffective place. You could well argue that describes your situation accurately, as from the information given so far, you appear to be ineffective in getting him to get off his backside and do his job.

Saturn is still Peregrine though in an effective house. The dependency on help though still holds. He's in a position to do something (communicate with you) but might not be able to get his act together - he still might need help about the law and Saturn's ruler, Jupiter is still in the house of children.

The nuances are different but both give a description of the situation.

I'll reply to your Libra points separately as I have to go and get dinner ready
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