Marseilles Pips meanings?

venicebard

Paul said:
Alright. Venicebard, shall I ask, this: Let's say I had a querent who was asking about how his or her romantic relationship was proceeding-- as a very practical example that comes up often for people seeking readings-- and we drew one of the cards you explain below.
Would you be so kind as to provide an exoteric application in the context of this proposed question of the romantic relationship?
4 Batons ~ This card would indicate unchecked lovingkindness between them, or on his part or her part depending on its place in the 'spread'. It is the fourth spoke (Baton) of the Great Wheel of the One and thus straight out (towards other, hence the divine attribute of complete empathy with other).

4 Coupes ~ This card would indicate, in a romantic relationship, the question of issue from the male point of view: if 5 Coupes does not appear to reciprocate it, perhaps it might indicate his desire for offspring is unanswered in his companion; or (again depending on context) it might have to do obliquely with some other form of 'issue', such as how she affects his ability to work, create, or produce. (More likely actual desire for offspring, though, this being closer to the root meaning: 2nd male form, i.e. that which has progressed from the chaste male of childhood [ultimately innocence] to the male who desires offspring.)

4 D'Epees ~ Metaphysically, this 4 links the two previous, the original 4th spoke and the 4 caught in time's maelstrom; hence it is that which identifies the part of the psyche that desires offspring as 'evil' or impure -- since put it in Eastern terms it is 'attachment to result' -- compared to desire that is chaste. An application to history might be when Napoleon changed wives to produce an heir, thus attempting to create a dynasty when the revolutionary spirit he wielded in battle was formed to overthrow dynasties, thereby betraying his own cause. But remember, this is only 'evil' in relation to the highest desire, chaste desire; next to lust (whose male form is 7 Coupes), it is an improvement, based on the commandment not to invoke the Name (creative power) of the Lord in vain, meaning that copulation to produce offspring is preferable to copulation merely from lust. (This perspective is genuine Judaic mysticism, however obscure its being rooted in the commandment has become.) In short, this card probably would point to some conflict created by the male desire for issue.

4 Deniers ~ Well, however the cycle of Jupiter or its metal might relate to said relationship: tin hardens copper (Venus) into bronze, which can then make a resonant noise (gong or trumpet) to gather people together, the Jupiterian adjective being jovial. Jupiter is the ruler of multitudes, yet he has attained his throne by deposing his 'father', the somewhat slower Saturn. It conveys the meaning of the original generosity and the power to take it away, I guess.

I'm not sure if any of this helps, or even if the Marseilles is at ease in the setting of 'readings', as I think the superior employment of it is in game, since this has the power of a reading but acts directly on the unconscious (that is, on the larger whole), rather than on just the conscious mind.
 

venicebard

Ayumi said:
......10..............D
.....8...9............C
...5...6...7.........B
1...2...3...4........A

. . .

Plane D represents the Unis Mundi (One World), the Anima Mundi (World Soul), the nature of the Monad (1), unity, impulse, and the element of Fire. This plane is represented by the Kings.
Interesting how you build the tetractys as if it were a pyramid instead of a hierarchical model. Why would the last to occur be first or ruler? The Monad is One, 1, and ten is its physical expression (man's ten digits). Four is also its expression, in the ancient alchemical formula that 4 is a return to unity, but this merely means that the physical means focus, and focus, then, becomes a center of the all.

No, I have always started at the top:

...... 1..............
.....3...2............
...5...6...4.........
8...9...10...7........

. . . or, if you like:

...... 1..............
.....2...3............
...4...5...6.........
7...8...9...10........

(I like the former, as at least then we agree on 6.)

As I view it, of course, it relates directly to the Tree of Cups or forms: the first is Adam Qadmon, 2 & 3 are the chaste (childlike) male and female, 4 & 5 the procreative male and female and 6 their offspring, 7 & 8 the lustful male and female and 9 & 10 their offspring, dual since in lusting there is no-longer agreement on result.
 

Ayumi

Ah Venicebard,

Where have you been? I've needed your insights to help me temper the steel of my theories. :love:

Your quite correct! The model can ascent or decent, and I myself may opt to use the decending sequence on occasion.

In the practical realm of card reading for people, it may depend on the type of person I'm reading for, or the type of question. A question about getting a loan approval is a different sort of beast than a question about "finding God", or even "Will I have a good life?"

Ayumi
 

Paul

venicebard said:
I'm not sure if any of this helps, or even if the Marseilles is at ease in the setting of 'readings',

Thank you, it does help to see your model applied. I do think the TdM is perfectly at ease in the setting of readings. As you elucidate through your examples, your thorough knowledge of your model and its intricacies allows you to extrapolate practical meanings. No matter what overlay we may be using for the TdM, the integrity of that model and our personal resonance with it is what I think matters. You have often gone to great lengths to show the integrity of your model and it clearly has personal resonance for you.
Someone said, you've got to have faith in your magic.
 

EnriqueEnriquez

Teheuti said:
Enrique, it's great to hear from you again. I had a discussion a while back with someone who said that emotion always follows thought. From my research on emotions I had come to understand that primary (primal) emotion precedes thinking: for instance, primal fear which leads to flight, flight, or freeze. Whereas secondary or more complex emotions (sometimes called feelings) follow thought. I'm curious what you meant by the word "urge". For instance, Jung made a distinction between affect and feeling. Does this relate?

Could you relate the process you describe above to the numbers of the Minor Arcana and perhaps expand on them a little with some examples from the suits? I know you've been working deeply with the Marseilles deck for a long time.

Mary


Until this week, I hadn't been in this forum for months, so, I wasn't aware of Mary's direct question in relationship to my previous post. My apologies!


By "urge" I was translating from Spanish "urgencia" meaning a pressing need. I feel Tarot shows us how all our processes start by a need manifested by the body. Now, I don't see that "body" just as a physiological instance. (I find useful Arnold Mindell's idea of a dreambody, whose symptoms and flirts are manifestation of unconscious dreams delivered by a different channel). We not only have the urge of eating, reproducing, or getting ourselves into safety. We also have creative urges or many kinds. In other words, our body knows that we want something, even before we consciously know that we want it. Tarot helps us to make that unconscious urge, conscious.

Now, before answering the rest of your question I would like to share some of my own visual considerations about the minors:

We all have seen how the minors are divided in four suits: Coins, Wands, Swords, and Cups. I like to see them as four processes that take place simultaneously in a person:

- A bodily process, represented by the Coins

- A creative process, represented by the wands

- An intellectual process, represented by the swords

- An emotional process, represented by the Cups

These four process together compose what I like to see as a vertical narrative. There is a fifth process, composed by the major arcana, that I like to see as representing our horizontal narrative. The Major arcana are the map that signals the road (well, this days I guess we should say is the GPS :) ). The minor arcana are the control panel.

(NOTE: In his extraordinaire book “La Vía del Tarot” Alejandro Jodorowsky defines these as four “centers.” I prefer to see them as “processes” because I don’t think they can be localized in any specific part of the body. In the same way, Jodorowsky, whose book is IMO the best book on Tarot out there, defines the wands as sexual/creative. I think that sex is the creativity of the body, but creativity can manifest in several other ways that are very relevant for us when we read Tarot. That is why I prefer to include sex within creativity, and not as a separate, or unique category).

Now, if we simply look at the cards, and I do believe these cards are intended to be seen just as we see the majors, we will notice how one of these four elements becomes a recurrent presence that permeates the other three. I am talking about the floral element that we relate to the wands, but that in truth starts manifesting in the Ace of Coins. That “vine” spreads itself all over the 56 minor arcana!

Now, how does it behaves? If we follow its behavior, we start seeing a story evolving, just as we can see a story evolving in the 22 major arcana.

The vine starts at the Ace of Coins when four branches pop out from the golden mandala, animating it like Cinderella’s pumpkin right before turning into a carriage. From that point on, we will see that vine behaving in the same way luxurious nature manifest in reality: is starts crawling over everything! The two of Coins shows us how that vine reaches out and embraces a new coin that appears within the card’s area. When a third coin appears, in the Three of Coins, the vine will reach out and encircle it, setting down a pattern: every time a new element/coin makes its appearance, the wine will reach out and embrace it. It is almost as if the vine, that I like to see as the creative principle that lives behind all things, were creating reality by agglutinating cells, or molecules.

As a bodily process, we see how the vine reaches out in the odd cards, and gets stabilized in the even cards. This is, the body expands while active, and finds balance by being passive/receptive.

For me, the Ace of Coins is telling us: “I am!”

Zulu people says that the universe started when Time fecundated the “Fertile Darkness”. I like that. I like to think on our unconscious as that fertile darkness. Give it some time, and jut like the ace of coins grow branches, it will create an “urge.” For me, that urge is always of a creative nature. It wants us to do something.

Now, after the body/dreambody/unconscious has generated that creative urge, it manifest by calling our attention. That is what I see represented in the Ace of Wands. There we have the creative principle behind all things saying “I want!” The thing is, this creative urge has no name yet. At a personal level we may feel restless, or disoriented, depressed, angry... we only know that we feel different, or incomplete, and we have a torch shading light over our gut feeling, so we don’t forget about it!

How does behave our “vine” in the Wands series? It does what creativity needs to do in order to grow stronger: it looks for an structure. From Two to Ten, the wands will multiply themselves creating a fence very similar to the one we see in porches or restaurants, so the vine can crawl up. Here, we detect an alternative pattern: there are only leaves in the even odd numbers, and flowers in the even numbers. This is: creativity flourishes when is receptive.

When our structure is firm and complete, the vine crawls up. Place the Ace of swords above the Ace of Wands (like Jodorowsky does in his book) and you will see the flames of the Ace of Wands continuing into the Ace of Swords. The vine ascends to the intellect. This is, the creative urge find an structure in its quest to make itself conscious.

How does behave our vine in the Swords series?

Something interesting happens: there is no wild vine anymore. It gets “trimmed” by the swords. In fact, we will see how there are swords in the odd cards, and flowers in the even ones. This is, the intellect flourishes when it is receptive to new ideas. When is active, it has to take action, adjusting and reshaping our useful thoughts, and cutting off the poisonous ones. The intellect is the “gardener” of our creative impulse.

The Ace of Swords tell us: “I understand!”

The nameless urge has become conscious. Our wild vine became a garden.

Now, we all know how dry thoughts can be. They only have us reaching true excitement when we sprinkle some emotions on them. :) That is why we have to water it! And we got plenty of water in the suit of cups.

The Ace of Cups tell us: “I know!”

When I see the way our vine behaves along the Cups series, I see an harmonious garden. Flowers and vases are arranged in a progression that ends up when the vine dies, as shown on the Nine of Cups. The way I see it, a trimmed vine, intended to be put in display, just as our emotions are intended to be shared with others, dies when it had served its purpose. In other words, a creative urge disappears when it is fulfilled. But here is the thing: while the Ten of Cups shows no remaining vine, there is a flower hiding in the tenth cup (I have been using the Jodo-Camoin deck for years, and I don’t recall if this flowers are present in other versions of the deck, sorry). The seed for the new garden! This is the flower we see at the center of the golden mandala in the Ace of Coins. The cycle starts over again.

For me, reading the minors is like taking a pulse, or four different pulses. (Chinese and Ayurveda medicine have both that idea of different pulses that has to be taken in a person in order to establish a diagnosis. I feel Tarot works under similar premises). In each suit I see a progressive rhythm that goes On and Off in a binary way, from active to receptive. I really don’t read too much in each one of the cards by themselves. For the reading to be useful, I need to understand each card in relationship with the rest of the series.

So, instead of telling someone who got the Seven of Coins that it means a limping old lady taking her dog to a hair dresser, I would tell the person that in her body process, she is in a god time to reach out and embrace these elements that may help her to learn how to take her actual feeling of harmony to a deeper level. This is a more or less literal description of the card I am seeing in front of me. The card shows me that it is time to expand and grow. I would tell my sitter not to feel threatened if she feels she will have to leave that sense of harmony behind (6Coins left behind); and to to use this time to move forward, knowing that in very little time she will feel stable again, ready to process all these actions and decisions and turning them into a sense of accomplishment (8Coins coming ahead). Depending on the specific understanding we are having of “material world”, this can be expanded on several levels, from a financial investment to a fitness routine.

But Usually, I won’t see one single card like that. I will contrast the card to one of the majors, representing the client’s energetic imprint. Therefore, the above paragraph may get re-framed as an attribute of that Major. (This is getting off topic, sorry).

So, summarizing, I see in the minor arcana a description of how a nameless urge is brought into consciousness, affecting our emotions in a way that is directly proportional to our capacity to fulfill it. We all have something inside whose fulfillment will define us. When we make it conscious, we also become aware of the challenge that honoring that urge represents. Being successful at honoring it will elicit certain emotions. Failing at doing so will elicit certain others. The nature of these emotions will have an effect on the body, because the nature of these emotions defines the “seed” that will fecundate again our “fertile darkness.”

Now, back to your initial question, can we really say that these emotions are different in nature from the "initial" urges? I don’t know. It is hard, if not impossible, to define were the cycle really starts, because it actually has no end.


Before I sign off, I would like to say two more things:

First, I have tried to be as brief as possible (Yeah, right!). If there is anything you feel needs expansion to be better understood, please let me know.

Second, please understand that this is a subjective view, that by no means pretends to exclude any other possibility, nor being the final answer to anything. I find it useful because my sitters find it useful; but I am sure that as long as my understanding of Tarot evolve, many other storylines will emerge from the minors.

Best,

Enrique Enriquez
 

kwaw

quotes from zohar

kwaw said:
divide a square into 9 cells:

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3

Discard the fool and I goes in 1, II in 2, etc; discard X then return so XI goes in 9, XII in 8, etc and discard the last two [XX and XXI].

The two cards in each square hence add up to XX:

Four countenances: LION, OX, EAGLE, MAN (Male & Female); and these four countenances are the four letters of Yud Hei Vav Hei:


----Y----
---H-Y---
- V-H-Y-
H-V-H-Y


And the Cherubs are ten handbreadths from bottom to top, NAMELY, TEN SFIROT OF RETURNING LIGHT, from their feet to their heads, AND TEN SFIROT OF DIRECT LIGHT from their heads to their feet, and they rest on a handbreadth, which is THE SECRET OF Yud. THEY THEREFORE CONTAIN ten from top to bottom and ten from bottom to top, NAMELY, THE TEN SFIROT OF DIRECT LIGHT AND THE TEN SFIROT OF REFLECTED LIGHT, and this is Yud Vav Dalet, WHOSE NUMERICAL SUM IS TWENTY…

And with regard to the teaching: Two according to the regulations, and a third of even a handbreadth; and of him who says three according to the regulations, and a fourth of even a handbreadth: that is because two, three, four, which together make nine, And the handbreadth is the tenth, that makes up every shortage.
 

Ayumi

Kwaw said:
And the Cherubs are ten handbreadths from bottom to top, NAMELY, TEN SFIROT OF RETURNING LIGHT, from their feet to their heads, AND TEN SFIROT OF DIRECT LIGHT from their heads to their feet, and they rest on a handbreadth, which is THE SECRET OF Yud. THEY THEREFORE CONTAIN ten from top to bottom and ten from bottom to top, NAMELY, THE TEN SFIROT OF DIRECT LIGHT AND THE TEN SFIROT OF REFLECTED LIGHT, and this is Yud Vav Dalet, WHOSE NUMERICAL SUM IS TWENTY…

And with regard to the teaching: Two according to the regulations, and a third of even a handbreadth; and of him who says three according to the regulations, and a fourth of even a handbreadth: that is because two, three, four, which together make nine, And the handbreadth is the tenth, that makes up every shortage.

Would you mind terribly dear giving us the 'user friendly' version? (for us slackers in the back of the class) :D

Ayumi
 

kwaw

Ayumi said:
Would you mind terribly dear giving us the 'user friendly' version? (for us slackers in the back of the class) :D

Ayumi

I don't imagine you slacking in back or front of class, and no more a fool in need of an idiots guide (an admittedly extreme take on the meaning of 'user friendly) than I am your 'dear';)

Kwaw
 

Teheuti

EnriqueEnriquez said:
I feel Tarot shows us how all our processes start by a need manifested by the body. Now, I don't see that "body" just as a physiological instance. (I find useful Arnold Mindell's idea of a dreambody, whose symptoms and flirts are manifestation of unconscious dreams delivered by a different channel). We not only have the urge of eating, reproducing, or getting ourselves into safety. We also have creative urges or many kinds. In other words, our body knows that we want something, even before we consciously know that we want it. Tarot helps us to make that unconscious urge, conscious.
Enrique - Your explanation makes a lot of sense to me. One of the hottest things in psychology right now are all the somatic therapies where it is believed that traumas have to be addressed where they are locked in the body.

These four process together compose what I like to see as a vertical narrative. There is a fifth process, composed by the major arcana, that I like to see as representing our horizontal narrative.
Nice touch to tie it in with the vertical and horizontal dimensions.

Jodorowsky, whose book is IMO the best book on Tarot out there, defines the wands as sexual/creative. I think that sex is the creativity of the body, but creativity can manifest in several other ways that are very relevant for us when we read Tarot.
How about the Vital Energy? I wish Jodorowsky's book was in English. I've tried reading it in Spanish but it's a little beyond my abilities without a lot of work.

one of these four elements becomes a recurrent presence that permeates the other three. I am talking about the floral element that we relate to the wands, but that in truth starts manifesting in the Ace of Coins. That “vine” spreads itself all over the 56 minor arcana!
Thanks for describing how you see this motif working through the four suits. I haven't yet had time to study the cards from this perspective but it makes a lot of sense to me.

the Seven of Coins <snip> shows me that it is time to expand and grow.
Forgive my cutting so much of your text, but I was wondering - if a problematic card followed the 7 of Coins - would it suggest that expansion and growth could lead to difficulties?

Now, back to your initial question, can we really say that these emotions are different in nature from the "initial" urges? I don’t know. It is hard, if not impossible, to define where the cycle really starts, because it actually has no end.
Yes, I can see that. Thank you for explaining what is obviously a very elegant system that makes a lot of sense.

Mary
 

EnriqueEnriquez

Hello Mary,

I am glad you find my explanation interesting. Thanks for your kind comments.

“Vital Energy” OF COURSE!!!! I have been trying to find the proper term for this, and I believe you just gave it to me. THANKS! :)

Now, regarding your question:

Teheuti said:
Forgive my cutting so much of your text, but I was wondering - if a problematic card followed the 7 of Coins - would it suggest that expansion and growth could lead to difficulties?

The short answer is: yes. That expansion, being indicated by an active card, may have conflicting implications, as indicated by the aditional card.

Now, when I have one card on the table, I am really seeing three cards: the precious and the following card. So, I would say that, even tough the tendency would be: reach out-embrace-adapt-stabilize, the additional card you are referring too would indicate the need to be cautious in the way the sitter manifest that expansion.

Best,

EE