Marseilles Pips meanings?

Thankyou Kwaw for posting that. And, my apologies for not naming you.
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I've just been browsing some very interesting posts re. the possible (marseille) suit attributes from Ayumi, and links from Fulgour, in this thread (beginning with Fulgours post & links). Both historical sources, Humours etc. and scientific understandings of the 'elements' are discussed:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=979741&postcount=2

Dispite an abiding interest in all possible associations for the Suits, I find that the more I read & learn of the various elemental approaches and arrangments, the more I become inclined to jettison the whole business of Suit-Elemental correlations. It seems that the four suit emblems can express or manifest aspects of the all Elements.

If we must have elemental correlations (and who said we should in the first place....), why not assign them to the numerals, the individual pip cards, and use some other vehicle for the Suits? What about a four-fold structure like this (snaffled & modified from the chinese. Apologies.):

1) Ascending, growing
2) Expanding, radiating
3) Contracting, condensing
4) Descending, flowing

So that if for instance, Coins were (2), Expanding, radiating, and (again, for instance) the 4 was aligned with Water, with the usual modern idea of 'feelings' etc. We would have a 4 of Coins as an infectiously happy, joyful card ("Smile & the world smiles with you" ?). You could go further and decide that Water doesn't radiate - unless it's phosphorus - and derive some other meaning for such a combination.

This is not necessarily the associations I would make for the suits/numbers, just a speculative example. Just wondering if I'm alone in wanting to break free of the Elemental 'mould'.

Bee

Bernice said:

Thankyou Kwaw for posting that. And, my apologies for not naming you.
..
I've just been browsing some very interesting posts re. the possible (marseille) suit attributes from Ayumi, and links from Fulgour, in this thread (beginning with Fulgours post & links). Both historical sources, Humours etc. and scientific understandings of the 'elements' are discussed:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=979741&postcount=2

Dispite an abiding interest in all possible associations for the Suits, I find that the more I read & learn of the various elemental approaches and arrangments, the more I become inclined to jettison the whole business of Suit-Elemental correlations. It seems that the four suit emblems can express or manifest aspects of the all Elements.

If we must have elemental correlations (and who said we should in the first place....), why not assign them to the numerals, the individual pip cards, and use some other vehicle for the Suits? What about a four-fold structure like this (snaffled & modified from the chinese. Apologies.):

1) Ascending, growing
2) Expanding, radiating
3) Contracting, condensing
4) Descending, flowing

So that if for instance, Coins were (2), Expanding, radiating, and (again, for instance) the 4 was aligned with Water, with the usual modern idea of 'feelings' etc. We would have a 4 of Coins as an infectiously happy, joyful card ("Smile & the world smiles with you" ?). You could go further and decide that Water doesn't radiate - unless it's phosphorus - and derive some other meaning for such a combination.

This is not necessarily the associations I would make for the suits/numbers, just a speculative example. Just wondering if I'm alone in wanting to break free of the Elemental 'mould'.

Bee

Click to expand...

Well, as an acupuncturist, I have a bit of experience with the elements, and as you've listed above, of course, they have elemental attribs as follows:
1) Ascending, growing = wood/spring/liver
2) Expanding, radiating = fire/summer/heart
3) Contracting, condensing = metal/fall/lungs
4) Descending, flowing = water/winter/kidneys

Which gives us these suit attribs:

1) Ascending, growing = wood/Batons
2) Expanding, radiating = fire/Deniers or Epees - I'd bet Epees
3) Contracting, condensing = metal/Deniers or Epees - I'd bet Deniers
4) Descending, flowing = water/Coupes

That leaves out earth/late summer or *center*/spleen = trumps?

I understand your feeling about dumping the elements completely, but I'm so convinced by what I've read of Mel's system that I believe I need the elements.

I guess I should post what I came up with so I don't have to keep retyping it out.. LOL laziness on my part, as I'm just copying and pasting this..


Cups=water=Spring=emotion. Reason being is our seasons. Here, in the spring everything gets released from the rivers, the streams, the clouds, the snow and it all flows, it's constantly moving. Our feelings are also something that is held in (usually our heart) and they flow as much as our rivers do. Cups can hold it but cups can release it. Same as any water vessel anywhere. (Dams, clouds, riverbanks, streams, fountains.. etc.)

Swords=fire=Summer=thought. This is pretty simple. Swords are forged in the fire. They cut, cuts burn. Just like getting a sunburn. Swords flash (like the sun.) Swords leave marks, as do thoughts. Thoughts can also cut and wound (especially when they are negative and verbalized or non verbalized.) Also swords move quickly and cut through things. Summer here is all bustle. Everything and everyone is moving, just as a sword does when in use. Also Swords conduct lightning, which is primarily in the Summer.

Wands=air=Fall=Endeavours. Wands are made of wood. Wood breathes. (think that explains it all.) Trees breath. Also here in the Fall, the first thing we think of is our trees. They light up with this amazing array of colours. The trees put on a lovely show for us! Wood is also the basis for most endeavours. Need paper? You need wood. Want to build a house? You need wood. Furniture, roads (old roads), just about everything was founded on being built by wood. So wood is about doing. I should add, Wood also grows. It grows leaves, bark, branches, creates sap.. Growing is also doing.

Coins=earth=Winter=Money (and spiritual.) Coins are made of the earth (yes I know forged like swords.. not the point.. LOL) they are also round like the earth. They are made of the earth. The are hard, solid and flat. Just like winter. Snow covers everything here, making everything look nice and straight across (not so when you walking along and fall in a hole up to your armpits.) Snow crusts making it hard, water freezes making it hard, the earth freezes making it hard. Money is an earthly matter. It's a humanity thing and has no placement with the divine. However, spiritual is the divine and can only be found by reaching within. Winter is a time of sleep and reflection. Everything is lazy and empty. The perfect condition for the divine. The divine and the earth are really one, hence the duality of this coin.

So anyways, those are mine. Just made sense to me with looking around at what I see in the world.

H

Keep in mind the essential defining qualities of each element;

Hello 'Vana, HoT and Mel,

I have to agree that Mels astro-system is a winner for me as well. It's the one that I can relate to best.

But my post was really about the elemental associations we use. It seems that any frame-work put forward for the suits (or pips) is immediately filed under the 4 elements and accorded a Suit definition. The 'elemental' associations have become firmly ensconced in everyones' mind-set. I've been trying to avoid this.
Mels post avoids naming/catogorizing the suits, although it is in relation to the 4 elements. He defines and stresses the nature of the qualities.

Unfortunately I used the 5 chinese elements as an example (elements again...DUH). My reasoning is, I suspect that the chinese element philosophy pre-dates the other early 'elemental' models. I've been tinkering with these five elements for a while now, primarily in relation to the pip-numbers, not the suits. A few days ago I was pleased to come across an early model called The River Map which pairs the numbers from 1 to 10. Delighted that the pairs are the same as the ones I've been tinkering with - a historical precedent!

Small aside here: I've even tried; Salt, Mustard, Vinegar, Pepper for the Suits Not suitable.... ( ! )

Bee

And here's a thread which also wonders if the suit of Coins are derived from chinese mirrors.

http://www.tarotforum.net/showpost.php?p=1592163&postcount=1

I am partictularly taken with Marcos' post which contains the link to a document describing the four Moral Emblems. Hmmm.... how about if the Suits were aligned with these?

Bee

Bee, Huson connects the suits to the 4 virtues in his book (unfortunately, he does straight GD astrological decan/QBLH meanings for the pips!), let me grab the book and list them:
Coins-Prudence-workers/servants-earth
Cups-Temperance-farmers/artisans-water
Swords-Justice-warriors - air
Batons-Fortitude-learned men/priests-fire

The 4 classes of men come from ancient Persian castes (since playing cards originated in Persia). Those obviously differ from Mel's (and many others) attribs - I forget, Mel, are those batons/laborers, swords/warriors, cups/priests, coins/??

It seems to me that early on in the book he went with cups/air, batons/earth etc... but right now I can't find that, perhaps I was dreaming it.

His take on the trumps is that they come from the Medieval Dance of Death. Interesting, I'm not sure if I'm convinced.

re: 5 Chinese elements: Bee, they aren't elements as we are used to thinking of them re: western elements. The word translated as "elements" is actually more like "phases", ie the phases of the transformation of energy. So it's actually more related to what Mel just posted - the hot/wet/dry/cold - though it's more directional, as you posted above (expanding/contracting, etc).

So don't worry that you're going back with elemental attribs - you are more talking about the *direction* and *tendency* of the Qi/Chi/Ki/Prana when you talk about the Chinese 'elemental' system.

There! Feel better?

'Vana: ...Huson connects the suits to the 4 virtues in his book (unfortunately, he does straight GD astrological decan/QBLH meanings for the pips!)...

Click to expand...

O.K. Thanks for this info 'Vana. I've gone off the idea of using the Morals/Virtues... (grimace)
BUT....

'Vana: re: 5 Chinese elements: Bee, they aren't elements as we are used to thinking of them re: western elements. The word translated as "elements" is actually more like "phases", ie the phases of the transformation of energy. So it's actually more related to what Mel just posted - the hot/wet/dry/cold - though it's more directional, as you posted above (expanding/contracting, etc).

So don't worry that you're going back with elemental attribs - you are more talking about the *direction* and *tendency* of the Qi/Chi/Ki/Prana when you talk about the Chinese 'elemental' system.

Click to expand...

I just Love your translations . "Phases", "direction" and "tendency"...... that's so very descriptive of how I have been perceiving them. (doing a small jig here )
And, yes 'Vana, I do feel so much better. I can now continue 'tinkering' with the fascinating interaction of these 'phases'

But you are so much more familiar with this approach - have you attempted to correlate these 'teachings' to the pip cards (or suits)? If you have = please do tell!

Bee

Bee you are going to laugh.. I sat down and figured all that out and I don't use it.. LMAO It just doesn't work it's way into my readings..

Hooked

Bernice said:

O.K. Thanks for this info 'Vana. I've gone off the idea of using the Morals/Virtues... (grimace)

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To tell you the truth, I haven't even tried to figure out what that correlation would mean! I just thought that you'd be interested in Huson's take on things.

Bernice said:

BUT....I just Love your translations . "Phases", "direction" and "tendency"...... that's so very descriptive of how I have been perceiving them. (doing a small jig here )
And, yes 'Vana, I do feel so much better. I can now continue 'tinkering' with the fascinating interaction of these 'phases'

Click to expand...

I'm glad that I could make your evening. Actually, it's quite common in five phase (element?) acupuncture to talk about how the word 'element' is not a good translation of the Chinese term. Kind of like how Chi/Qi/Ki is not really "energy", but rather something like "the finest matter/mist" or some such.

Bernice said:

But you are so much more familiar with this approach - have you attempted to correlate these 'teachings' to the pip cards (or suits)? If you have = please do tell!

Bee

Click to expand...

No, I haven't, but now you've got me thinking. Rather, you and Mel (and HoT, as well!). I always was wondering what to do with the 5th phase - but earth as the trumps? I'm not sure - but pondering this just now I can see where between Mel's good....bad scheme and the 5 phases, there might be something there. I don't know where number theory would fit in, though - if the 10 is some kind of 'higher completion' (I'm sure I have the term wrong, I was glancing at it last night), then how does that fit in with the coupes/denars going from 1-10, and the epees/batons going from 10-1?
Very puzzling.

Hooked on TdM said:

Bee you are going to laugh.. I sat down and figured all that out and I don't use it.. LMAO It just doesn't work it's way into my readings..

Hooked

Click to expand...

I can see where that would be the case! but I'm struggling to get away from the GD and their QBLH stuff (blech blech blech blech BLECH) which has absolutely NOTHING to do with Historical Tarot (tm), and I also look at a card with pips and think 'enh, wtf does that mean?' - so this is important for me. Which is why I got so turned on by Mel (heh heh heh). His astro spread kicks ass, and you don't need to know Geburah from Netzach!