Marseilles Pips meanings?

jmd said:

A fountain pen does not have at its end a weapon attached, but rather a manufactured artificial quill (manufactured, in many cases, in metal for duration).

The quill is itself taken from the feather of a (usually) large bird - or at least, a bird with thick feathers, such as the goose.

The quill itself, incidentally, replaced the totally wooden reed pen, made entirely of wood, grass or straw, used from ancient Egyptian times to the present.

Click to expand...

I simply meant that without a blade, a pointed edge, to dispense the ink -- whether or not it be of metal -- the 'fountain pen' in the King of Batons is only a pointer (pointing out to one's eye, to fire's sense). I stand by this. By the way, words (of satire) are the weapon of the poet.

Carry on.

Squaring the Circle

thinbuddha said:

I think using numerology as a system for interpreting pips is superior to using the Major Arcana I to X for one big reason: what makes those 10 arcana so important that they need to be represented 5 times in a single deck?

Click to expand...

True, but nonetheless I find it works, also at least some of the trumps 1-X do seem to correspond with traditional number symbolism, as found for example in agrippa, for example 6-venus-love, 7-the vehicle of life, 8 - justice, 9 -the end of all things that have a beginning [ie time, or old man of hermit], x - tetractys - see picture under 10 here:

http://journals.aol.co.uk/kwaw93/NumberSymbolism/

As noted by others here you can incorporate the other trumps, either by additive method [10=1+0=1], or discarding the X [XI = I, XII=II, etc].

Being my usual perverse self I devised a different method I call 'squaring the circle':

divide a square into 9 cells:

7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3

Discard the fool and I goes in 1, II in 2, etc; discard X then return so XI goes in 9, XII in 8, etc and discard the last two [XX and XXI].

The two cards in each square hence add up to XX:

1 = I Bateleur and XVIIII Sun
2 = II Papesse and XVIII Moon
etc.

Each row and each column thus adds up to 60, and 6x60=360, hence 'squaring the circle'.

The ascending trumps you can use with the ascending suits, swords and staves; the returning trumps with the descending suits cups and coins [though you can obviously swap them around to your own preference]. The three discarded trumps and fool with the 4 X's [again, choose as you feel fits best].

Kwaw

Very nice, kwaw! And the name you give it makes it even more appealing (to me at least).

I wonder if there would be any added advantage to using a Square of Saturn (ie, a 'magic' square). As each cell adds to twenty, it would not alter an iota of the overall figure of 360, but would perhaps also show other relationships.

In addition, a nine-celled magic square has one of its sides depicting the value of Phi (or the Golden Mean): .618

In that case, we'd have a Squaring the Circle with a side representing the Golden Mean, reflecting the Square of Saturn, which itself traditionally exhibits the largest circle for planetary movement... but I'm getting carried away!

kwaw said:

The two cards in each square hence add up to XX:

1 = I Bateleur and XVIIII Sun
2 = II Papesse and XVIII Moon
etc.

Kwaw

Click to expand...

Kwaw, I love this system.

I can see how the combinations of the Majors synthesize to demonstrate a meaning for the number...
1= I, XVIIII (The sun in the hat of Le Bateleur is glorified in Le Soleil)
2= II, XVIII (Le Papesse is often associated with the Moon in La Lune)
...Each combination-- at least as far as iconographic association is concerned-- seems to fit together better, as opposed to the Theosophical Reduction method (2= II and XI) or the number-repeating method (3=III and XIII).

...But, with this "squaring of the circle" method, I get to 9 (9= VIIII and XI) and have trouble seeing the synthesis of L'Hermite and La Force, as far as the traditional meaning of Nines/Neuf/Ennead.

Any inspiration?

Paul said:

I get to 9 (9= VIIII and XI) and have trouble seeing the synthesis of L'Hermite and La Force,

Any inspiration?

Click to expand...

The hermit holds up the lamp of reason, in fortitude, reason 'tames' or is allied to force.

There is also perhaps a connection between Diogenes [hermit] as 'mad socrates', and the socrates-hercules seen as types of christ in 15th century platonism.

In Plato's republic, Thrasymichus, the 'wild beast' at one point calls Socrates 'Hercules', shortly after Socrates states to the pugnacious Thrasymichus, 'do you think me mad to try and shave the lion', identifying Thrasymichus with the lion. The herculaen theme runs as an undercurrent through the Republic, as well as hercules and the lion, socrates and thrasymichus, the sophia and fortitude as allies who make up the 'guardians' in the city and the soul, the descent to the cave has parallels with Hercules descent into hades to capture the three headed cerburus [the soul and its three aspects].

In the early painted image of fortitude as hercules and lion, note both lion and hercules seem to face a common direction, not combatants, but allies, just as Socrates states the lion [representative of the spirited aspect of the soul, whose corresponding virtue is fortitude] should be allied to the man [image representative of the reasoning side of the soul, corresponding to reason]. In the TdM too, I would say the lions mouth is not being forced by the figure, rather the two are in agreement, and it is in that agreement between the sophia and spirit, wise ruler and warrior, that the two become a force and take on the mantle of 'guardian' of the city/soul.

These two allies, the wise ruler and the warrior [wisdom and fortitude], make up the guardians [of the city/soul]. See the cary-yale thread in history forum re: platonic influence on the early painted decks [which I believe developes through into a more directly neo-platonic influence in the TdM].

Kwaw

Paul said:

...Each combination-- at least as far as iconographic association is concerned-- seems to fit together better, as opposed to the Theosophical Reduction method (2= II and XI) or the number-repeating method (3=III and XIII).

Click to expand...

I will suggest a method you omit, since it is probably the method of the creators: I-XXI, II-XX, III-XVIIII, etc. (2nd matched with 2nd-to-last, 3rd with 3rd-to-last, etc.) There is a proviso, though, in that after the first three, the rest have evidently (based on Lurianic Kabbalah) collapsed, in man, to yield IIII-XVII, V-XVI, and so on, X collapsing from XII onto the fulcrum-slash-mirror itself, XI. Its logic becomes apparent when we note that Magician attempts to control the World, Papess (mother Church) awaits the day of Judgment, and Empress (the beloved, who 'rules' the Troubadour and is thus addressed as 'lord') is the reason for sunlight. Should this poetic approach fail to convince, consider that I-XI-XXI are all one thing -- in itself, in relation to one 10-fingered, and in relation to two 10-fingereds -- II-XI-XX are all numerological 2s (by digital sum), and III-XI-XVIIII are all of +1 valence (one valence-electron available for conducting electricity or combining chemically), valence being nature's numerology. Note the fulcrum-slash-mirror's participation in all three combinations.

In both the number repeating method and the squaring the circle, both devil and pope are matched at V-XV.

In Manichaean theology the ruler of light and the ruler of darkness each have five members…and the principle of light borders on the principle of darkness and "there is no keeping apart between them, for the light touches the darkness on its border…and out of this darkness Satan came into being.

The pleroma of light is triple, and each of the triadic parts has five attributes or limbs. The dark Pleroma is also triple, each with five attributes, as a mirror or inversion to the pleroma of light. Thus in Manichean theology there is the relationship between the Father of Light and King of Darkness, and the numbers 5 and 15 [the five limbs in the triple pleroma of light and the triple pleroma of darkness].

The holy father and the king of darkness, a gnostic connection in the numbers V and XV?

Kwaw

Indeed, Venicebard.

I have seen several number "combo platters," if you will, and it seems that there can be made a rationale for just about any of the combinations in most associations, like I-X or I-XXI or X-XI or I-XVIIII. In some combinations, ideas/symbols between cards are repeated but in variation, in others ideas/symbols are placed in duality, in others ideas/symbols are related.

In fact, Rodes/Sanchez and Camoin derive their reading methods evidently from these phenomena.

Hi.

Kwaw's "Squaring the Circle" arrangement has a profound internal balance.

The rows of Trumps in the square all reduce to 6 obviously. (6+0=6)

The four remaining cards which are not in the square, The Fool, X, XX, and XXI when added up and reduced also equal 6. (0+10+20+21=51(5+1=6)).

The addition of the two also equal six. (360+51=411(4+1+1=6)).



The rows of 'pips' placed in the square also add up to 60 and reduce to 6.

The four 10s not in the square added to the supposed value of the court cards equal 240 (2+4+0=6).

10x4=40
11x4=44
12x4=48
13x4=52
14x4=56

40+44+48+52+56=240(2+4+0=6)

and alas...

360+240=600. Yes, another happy 6.

Six is the number of balance and harmony, and there seems to be lot of that in this arrangement. 6 is also numerologically connected to the number of Trumps (21) and the number of pips (56).

21 is a triangular number of base 6. 231 (2+3+1=6) is the triangular number of base 21. 1596 (1+5+9+6=21) is the triangular number of base 56.


Victor Melphax aka ROM makes a similar arrangement of the Tarot as Kwaw and presents this and other interesting Tarot hypothesizing at:

http://www.sitederom.ca/

Most of the site is in French, but there is a small English page.


Ayumi

Ayumi said:

The rows of Trumps in the square all reduce to 6 obviously. (6+0=6). Ayumi

Click to expand...

And the total is 6x6=36, the number of decans in the circle, and 4x9.

Ayumi said:

Six is the number of balance and harmony, and there seems to be lot of that in this arrangement. Ayumi

Click to expand...

We could also relate it to the neo-platonic triadic process of emanation [1-9], conversion [10] and return [9-1], related to the three graces, neo-platonic symbols of the 'unfolding' of the triadic union 'infolded' in venus, whose number is six [Capella, Agrippa].

Emanation and return we may relate to the 'two forms of motion' [the third term being 'rest], the first form of motion being 'away from the one' and called 'strife', the second form 'towards the one' and called 'love'.

These we relate to the tarot game rule, that two suits are ordered from low to high, and two high to low.

Kwaw