Marseilles Pips meanings?

I use a Pythagorean system now, and your explanation is one of the most lucid I've read in awhile. I love how you are integrating Alchemy.

I know you'll probably get to it, but you mention how the iconography of the I-X Trumps reflect the number symbolism & alchemy symbolism. I'm always looking for how the 2nd "row" integrates, XI-XXI.

Thanks!

Paul said:

I'm always looking for how the 2nd "row" integrates, XI-XXI.

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Hello Paul,

Are you working with a system where XI through XX are a 'higher octave' of I through X? If so, I've contemplated that one a few times myself. I wouldn't go so far as to say I believe that that structure is the true structure of the Tarot, (although Phillipe Camoin believes it is) but it does give a lot of insight into the meanings and relationships of the cards, and makes a nice 'meditative' exercise. That structure also intergrates nicely into giving meaning to the pips. In Camoin's system for example the VII de Coupe is simply Le Chariot working in the realm of Cups (relationships, etc.)

I'll share a few very subjective reflections I had contemplating that structure, although the moderator may ship us off somewhere else.

I/XI - deceiving people or defending people, a choice?
II/XII - Pope Joan and her punishment; knowledge used for personal gain
will lead to your downfall.
III/XIII - creation and destruction.
IIII/XIIII - the good ruler uses his power in moderation.
V/XV - the truth and the lie, good and evil, etc.
VI/XVI - the forming of a family (a house) and the destruction of a
house, all good things must come to an end?
VII/XVII - Mars and Venus, the classic male/female dicodomy.
VIII/XVIII - to be Just we should never wax nor wane, fairness requires
consistancy.
VIIII/XVIIII - inner knowledge illuminates like the sun.
X/XX - leave behind the fickle fortunes of the world for eternal salvation

Ayumi

Ayumi's Pip/Court Method Part Two

If you took two opposing Tarot card suits, say Swords and Coins, (Fire and Water in my system, Air and Earth in Waite's) and arranged them thus:

Swords.1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10
Coins..10...9...8...7...6...5...4...3...2...1.

you will get the same 'number polarity' I talked about before. You also get an elemental polarity. If you took the negative aspects of the sword suit and compared it to the positive aspect of the opposing number of the Coin suit, the divinatory meaning should logically be its opposite, and vice versa. So there is a triple polarity, number polarity, suit/elemental polarity, and the internal positive/negative polarity inherent in the cards meaning.

Here is an example. The cards meanings are my own interpretation.

.3 of Coins (when positive)- Contentment. First positive signs from investments. Dependability. Coming to an agreement. Clear thinking due to a detached attitude. Achieving organization. Steady but slow advancement. A third party mediating between two other parties. Achieving peace. Results through patient efforts.

.8 of Swords (when negative) - Opinionated. Lack of Sympathy. Cruel in regard to the suffering of others. Over discriminating. Judgmental. Unforgiving. Vindictive. Suppressing anger. An opposed order. Abuse of the legal system. Unjust victory.

So applying this idea of polarities can we not also conclude that the 3 of Coins also can be said to be the opposite of the 8 of swords; is un-opinionated, has sympathy, is not cruel in regard to the suffering of others, is not overly discriminating, is not judgmental, is forgiving, is never vindictive, is free from anger, is unlikely to oppose order, would not abuse the legal system, and any victories here would be earned through patient effort?

Likewise, Can we not also conclude that the 8 of Swords also can be said to be the opposite of the 3 of Coins; uncontent, to show no positive signs from investments, is undependable, can not come to an agreement, has unclear thinking due to an inability to have a detached attitude, can't achieve organization, can't have a steady but slow advancement. can't be a third party mediating between two other parties, doesn't achieve peace, and doesn't get results through patient efforts.

This of course applies to all the pip cards.

This approach may seem unpractical and a mere intellectual exercise, but I've found it really helped me in forming a 'holistic' vision of the minors, and how they fit together. It also gives more depth to each card. This approach was very helpful in interpreting a coherent, balanced set of meanings for the pip cards when I designed my system, as a way of cross checking. Also, 'opposing' cards in a spread may have a special significance to be aware of. This helped me from making the common mistake of thinking that if the 2 of Cups means "love" when positive, it would mean "NOT love", if negative.

More to come....


Ayumi

Ayumi said:

Paul, Are you working with a system where XI through XX are a 'higher octave' of I through X?

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I have done so, but have also toyed with Kwaw's Squaring of the Circle and other combinations. At times, I have just stuck with the Pythagorean number symbolism and associated that with the Pip suit, and therein let the Majors be by themselves.

In Camoin's system for example the VII de Coupe is simply Le Chariot working in the realm of Cups (relationships, etc.)

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This is also Mr. Rodes and Ms. Sanchez' method, called the LE MAT method, I believe. While it is simple, one wonders why the XI-XXI don't also play a part in the Minors. For example, how could we interpret the VII de Coupe as Le Chariot (VII) and Le Toile (XVII) operating in cups? Or, Kwaw's number method: Le Chariot and L'Arcane Trieze (XIII) in cups? Or, the Theosophical reduction method: Le Chariot and La Maison Dieu (XVI) in cups?

I believe Camoin and Rodes/Sanchez have said that I-X represent the terrestial world and thus are the correlates to the Minors.

So, the idea of just VII Le Chariot in cups is more simple. As well, just taking the Pythagorean meanings of 7 might be helpful, without the Majors.

kwaw said:

9 – Hermit / Strength – Yesod

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The magical image of Yesod is a 'Strong Man'. Yesod the ninth sphere corresponds to the sixth day of creation, the creation of Man ADM, and ADM = 45; and 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9 = 45.

Kwaw

Ayumi's Pip/Court Method Part Three

My approach to the court cards is similar to the idea Paul wrote about for the Trumps; that there are two levels of 1 through 10, and that they repeat on a higher level. The two general approaches to this are; the method used by Philippe Camoin and others where XI is a higher octave of I, XII is a higher octave of II, and so on, and the other approach is Theosophical reduction where 17 is numerically 8, since 1 + 7 = 8, etc..

The four suits of the Tarot each contain fourteen cards. The fourteen cards are divided into two types; ten pips, and four courts. The easiest way to induce esoteric meaning onto this structure, is simple to use the structure itself. A set of 10, and a set of 4, related but different. All you Pythagoreans out there know where this is going.

I propose the 4 (court cards) are the 10 (pips), on a higher level.

1+2+3+4 = 10

The Tetractys is the mystical arrangement of 1 - 10 in Pythagorean number mysticism. The numbers are configured in a triangle which has four planes (levels). For convenience I'll calls these planes A,B,C and D.


......10..............D
.....8...9............C
...5...6...7.........B
1...2...3...4........A


Plane A represents the mundane, the physical, the nature of the Tetrad (4), completion, consolidation, stability, and the element of Earth. This plane is represented by the Valet.

Plane B represents the psychic, the planetary, time, change, process, the nature of the Triad (3), and the element of Air. This plane is represented by the Knights. (In some versions Water and Air are switched around on Planes B and C. I use Plane B as Air to accommodate the common custom of the Queens being Water, and the Knights being Air.)

Plane C represents the ethereal, the spiritual, the nature of the Dyad (2), duality, separation, and the element of Water. This plane is represented by the Queens.

Plane D represents the Unis Mundi (One World), the Anima Mundi (World Soul), the nature of the Monad (1), unity, impulse, and the element of Fire. This plane is represented by the Kings.

The polarity discussed earlier can also apply here, with the King and Valet being opposites, and the Queen and Knight being opposites.

There has been a lot written about the Tetractys through the centuries. I've just scratched the surface.

Looking at my method overall, it is fundamentally a 3 x 4 arrangement (excluding the fives and sixes):


Unity and Impulse.................1..........7...........King
Separation and Purpose.........2...........8..........Queen
Process to Completion...........3..........9...........Knight
Completion to Consolidation...4..........10..........Valet

Of course this is a framework, as each card has it uniquenesses as well.


Ayumi

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venicebard said:

Something should be clarified about the Tree that this diagram misconstrues: Da'at is not 3, and the first Sefirah is not 0. The identification of Keter with ain ('nothing' or 'nought') on the one hand means nothing having yet differentiated itself from the One, while on the other hand (really the flip side of the same coin) the Tree itself is said to progress from ain (alef-yod-nun), 'nought', to ani (alef-nun-yod, by transposition of yod and nun), 'I', meaning it maps the differentiation of the individual, the Shekhinah being the Presence of the divine in the individual (or collectively, in individuals).

No, Da'at was originally 4, not 3, and lost that status (in fallen man's psyche) when the lower seven Sefirot underwent the 'breaking of the vessels', which pushed 4 on to the next station, on the male side, and the rest each forward one as well. This is easily understood once the Tree is seen in terms of its origin, as the first ten stations of the round from up to back (aries the head to capricorn or mid-spine, which becomes the knees in the broken-and-extended zodiac): that is, from up, that which is exalted (next to which I am 'nothing', ain), to back towards self (where I am 'I', ani). When the Sefirot are subjected to the maelstrom of time, they 'blur out' into the arcs leading from each of them to the next. In the unmanifest (above the horizon) each arc remains associated with the sign whence it springeth; but in the manifest (where the lower seven Sefirot are), each becomes associated with where it ends up. Since 3 is in the unmanifest and springeth from the 3rd station (gemini), and 4 is in the manifest and ends up in the 5th station (leo), the original 4th station (cancer) is still there but no longer associated (in fallen man's psyche, that is) with any Sefirah, yet we know it to be there and call it Da'at.

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“24. Sometimes instead of Keter, Daat is enumerated amongst the sefirot. The
GR"A explained that the inclusion of Keter reflects the inner aspect, while the inclusion of
Daat, reflects the external aspect.
25. This is because the quality of Keter - Great Mercy is not presently revealed. It
will only be fully realized in the world to come. This is indicated by the divine name E-H-EY-
E-H - "I will be," in the future tense, meaning, "I am destined to be" - after the six
thousandth year of creation. Since the conduct toward the world is preparatory to G-d's
ultimate intent of benefiting all, Keter, though concealed, is its underlying and motivating
force, as stated in the Talmud, "Everything that the Merciful One does is for the good."
For this reason, Keter is only counted in respect to the hidden inner aspect but
regarding the external aspect, Daat is counted instead, since it represents that minute
revelation of Keter in this world, on a lesser level. It is, therefore, centered under
Chochmah (which is free of Judgement) and Binah (in which discernments begin to arise)
being a median conduct betwen them.
26. All that is revealed and is known to us of Keter is that this world is preparatory
to its revelation in the world to come. Accordingly, Keter is the root of all present conducts
since it was G-d's original intent to reveal Keter through them - "The last deed being in the
first thought."
27. This explains the above statement that Keter is counted regarding the inner
aspect, but regarding the external aspect, Daat is counted instead, and Keter is only
considered the root. Keter is therefore called Ayn - Nothingness and Raysha D'Ayn - The
Primal Nothingness, because we comprehend almost nothing of it. Accordingly, the GR"A
states that, "revelation begins with Chochmah." The order of the sefirot would then be:
Chochmah, Binah, Daat, Chesed, etc.”
End quote from The Beginning of Wisdom. A Compendium of Primary Kabbalistic Principles
Translated by Rabbi Amiram Markel & Michoel Tzvi Wolkenfeld

venicebard said:

Yes, the 'beginning' in that it is the first differentiation from the One, just as beyt, Hebrew 2, begins creation.

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Quote:
“The letter Bet indicates two things that are joined together, namely two points, one is concealed in mystery, one is revealed and out in the open; and as they are inseparable, they are called 'The Beginning' (Heb. Resheet), that is they are one and not two, and whoever takes one takes away the other as well. For He and His Name are One, as it is written, "that they may know that Thou and Thy name Hashem art alone." (Ps.LXXXIII:19).
End quote from Zohar I prologue 7b-8a.

Ayumi said:

The 1/10 relationship is interesting as they represent the beginning vs. the end, but, the ten is actually the return to the unity of the one, the seeker becomes the sought, man reunites with God. In Alchemical terms the illusionary duality of male (Sulfur) and female (Salt)
are wedded by Hermes (Mercury) in the process called 'coniunctio' creating the 'Philosophers stone' or the Quintessentia; spiritual illumination.

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The Alchemist Gerhard Dorn wrote of three coniunctio’s. The first coniunctio happens with ‘separatio’, (THE DYAD-2). One becomes conscious of the separateness of body and soul, and the soul unites with spirit, while the body is left separated. He calls this ‘unio mentalis’. The second coniunctio happens when the soul and spirit reunite with the purified body, (THE HEPTAD-7, or the second MONAD-1), a return to the unity of the one. The third coniunctio is the combination of the spirit-soul-body within the 'Unus Mundus’, the total unification of spirit-soul-body consilidated into the World (the DECAD-10, the second 4, being consolidation, and the third MONAD (1+0 = 1) being unity.)

Total alchemical enlightenment in ten easy steps.


Mel