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Baroli's Avatar
Baroli  Baroli is offline
Join Date: 05 Feb 2006
Location: State of confusion in the land of free speech,..
Posts: 6,936

Originally Posted by Sidhe-Ra
As to 'bad art', that is always a matter of is enormously subjective. I have learnt that there will always be someone who doesn't like your work. You just have to treat it like water off a duck's back and move on.
You bring up such a valid point in this statement. Art is highly subjective. But in the same light, artists and I don't care what the venue is, whether it is tarot card art or music or whatever, have to be ready to take the good with the bad, although some artists also need to grow a tougher skin. I have to think very long and hard when I am asked "what do I think of my latest offering?" I view the decks as tools of my trade and if I am not comfortable with a deck because the artwork leaves me flat and uninspired, I should be able to tell the artist that (diplomatically) and not worry about this person going off to slit their wrists because I and/or others don't like it.

I think it should also be noted that if you are going to give an opinion, being direct and honest is the best, laced heavily with diplomacy. Giving constructive criticism is just that being constructive. Turning it into a personal vendetta or personal attack is just not called for and serves no useful purpose. Yet, as we have seen, this "person" has chosen to do just that and make it a personal attack against Em.

The avoidance of negative opinions in the new age world is about sensitivity to the feelings of others and courtesy and respect.
Ahhhh, this statement I think is what the general public view "new agers" to be and that is highly misrepresenting. I have seen some New Age folk be as nasty as you can imagine and others be so ethereal in thought, I have wanted to shake them awake lol. I think just being human and use common sense is all we can and should expect of each other and not label it as New Age. Common sense has been around a lot longer than New Age thought. Again, my opinion, don't get excited.
Top   #11
Sidhe-Ra's Avatar
Sidhe-Ra  Sidhe-Ra is offline
Join Date: 24 Nov 2005
Location: Kernow
Posts: 3,681

True, true... is it common sense, or common sensitivity, though?
Top   #12
Baroli's Avatar
Baroli  Baroli is offline
Join Date: 05 Feb 2006
Location: State of confusion in the land of free speech,..
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LOL reminds me of the Novel "Sense and Sensibility."

I think a marriage of both would probably be in order.
Top   #13
Sidhe-Ra's Avatar
Sidhe-Ra  Sidhe-Ra is offline
Join Date: 24 Nov 2005
Location: Kernow
Posts: 3,681

Absolutely- but let's not involve any of Jane Austen's characters as matchmaker!
Top   #14
cirom's Avatar
cirom  cirom is offline
Join Date: 17 Jul 2003
Location: Miami Florida USA
Posts: 2,182

Originally Posted by Umbrae
On the other hand…

EVEN IF I personally dislike the artwork – I cannot share that opinion, my review will not get published.

There is artwork that some of us find horrid – but even as a group, we are not allowed to speak honestly…for fear of hurting the poor artist's feelings.

…and although I may disagree with the ‘reviewer’s opinion’ in this instance – I must defend his right to share his opinion.

- and if you ask, I'l call it like I see it.
And on even another hand ....

I think there is a knee jerk reaction against the "evil" of censorship. People are often complaining that they are either censored from saying what they really think, or at least made to feel uncomfortable if they do so, because of hurting someone's feelings. Let me get that right. People don't like being made to feel uncomfortable or restricted here on aeclectic because the person whose work that they think is crap and should have the right to say so, might be reading it? Hmmm, yes I can see that might be annoying.

So what's the answer?

Lets consider things in context.

The internet is a wonderful opportunity for good and bad. Many decks get rejected by the main publishers, so artists who may have spent years on their project, have an option to self publish or at least share their work on line. Likewise some reviews also don't get published on more public forums for whatever reason, yet the reviewer who may have spent half an hour on their "obra" also have the options of sharing their contribution to the tarot world via personal blogs etc.

I keep hearing the same tired argument that if an artist put their work out there, then they have to accept whatever reaction is thrown at them. Well that should apply to reviewers and critics as well. Why shouldn't their reviews be equally open to criticism in return. (as is the case on this particular thread). Especially if the reviewers own credentials are suspect or unknown. This treasured freedom of speech should be applied in both directions surely.

So what's the answer.? Well I don't actually know exactly, but some kind of balance surely? Of course negative reviews should be permitted (I honestly hadn't realized that they weren't). Likewise with individual postings. Nevertheless, Yes I am glad that there is a degree of censorship on sites like Aeclectic, although I'd call it common sense "filtering". Because without it, we'd have every wannabe radio shock jock of the tarot world spouting all kinds of comments just because the could.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, even in your harshest critique, I'll assume your purpose is honest objectivity etc etc etc. But I can assure you not every new age contributor is as warm and fuzzy as you suggested in your post. Some most certainly would have other agendas in their comments. To allow every one complete freedom to say whatever, especially when they can do so anonymously is a recipe for disaster. The comments themselves and presumably the responses they would elicit would be distasteful, the discussions so heated that ultimately it would put off so many members that the viability of forums such as this would be jeopardized. So lets be careful what we wish for.

So, you may ask, who gets to decide what is and isn't acceptable. Well in this case ultimately Solandia. And in that seemingly undemocratic role lies true democracy. Because anyone who feels limited by her structure of this forum can simply ignore it and go to others that offer an environment more akin to theirs, or even better start their own forum.

A bit like buying tarot decks no matter how good or bad, there's a choice.
Top   #15
blackroseivy's Avatar
blackroseivy  blackroseivy is offline
Join Date: 20 Nov 2003
Location: Southern Tier NYS
Posts: 9,131

I totally agree, Ciro.

I just wanted to say that at 1st it didn't seem TOO bad - but then it got truly vitriolic in a totally unnecessary & uncalled-for way.

This guy has MAJOR anger-management issues...

Someone like that shouldn't be even commenting on the hard work of those who can "do" (as opposed to those who "can't do" & so "critique"); unfortunately these people are everywhere, & a creative person is NEVER going to get 100% approval from EVERYONE...

I can imagine what he'd say about MY idea - it's going to be a Tarot built out of dolls & miniature scenery! I think that if he actually LIKED something, it would be something of a "STOP THE PRESSES!!" miracle...

So please don't feel bad, Emily - anyone with an idea that is DIFFERENT is going to have FLAK up the yin-yang for it!
Top   #16
Alta's Avatar
Alta  Alta is offline
Golden Silvery Dionna
Join Date: 06 Aug 2001
Location: Canada
Posts: 27,056
Moderator note:

Just to be clear: this thread is about tarot deck and book reviews in general. Specific comments about the review of Transparent go here:

I have moved Gavriela's post there.

co-Moderator, Talking Tarot
Top   #17
Gavriela's Avatar
Gavriela  Gavriela is offline
Join Date: 11 Mar 2007
Location: Sometime Anywhere
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Sorry, Alta. It was meant to be a general comment about attention-seeking adolescents who throw a diddums wheeze when things aren't going their way. I still think ignoring them is best for both blood pressure and showing them that bad behaviour is not a desirable thing.
Top   #18
gregory's Avatar
gregory  gregory is offline
Cat on a cold stone roof
Join Date: 01 Jan 2004
Location: The world of the things that could have been.
Posts: 72,249

Thanks for this thread, mods.

I do find it can be very hard here to say you don't like a deck someone on this forum has created. Even when you want to be constructive and you have a seriously tarotical point to make, fans of the artist in question often descend like vultures and rip you to shreds. It has got so awkward that if I do have a suggestion about why I don't like a deck from someone I know will see it, and who has a fan base here, I often PM instead. It shouldn't be like that.

But what is odder is that if I make the same point in a thread, and the artist responds in that thread, they are MUCH more angry and defensive than they are by PM.

One thing I would say is that Ric, on behalf of LS, always responds thoughtfully and as part of a genuine discussion - and still gets lambasted. How DO we create an atmosphere where people can have a real discussion here along the lines of real reviews, without a slanging match starting up ?
Top   #19
Le Fanu's Avatar
Le Fanu  Le Fanu is offline
Join Date: 10 Feb 2008
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Posts: 17,258
Le Fanu 

Im with Gregory on this one.

But just some points which spring to mind; I wonder whether, as users of tarot and pendulums and rocks and runes,there is so much mistrust from "outsiders", so many times that we have to justify what we do and answer all those questions (or - god forbid - justify our interest)... so much mistrust - or even outright hostility - that when it somes from someone who is supposedly "informed" (or whom we expect to be an "insider") it hurts twice as much.

What I mean is that the only people who are really going to write a tarot review; is going to be someone who is - at the very least - minimally informed. And when they´re not, it´s kind of doubly offensive. Because we get so much flak from the "outside" world anyway.

But apart from that, there is genuine pussy-footing here at AT. There has to be. And it is never clear when my/our observation tips over into something which the artist will find mortifying. I certainly think it´s wrong to spit venom and insult, on whatever grounds. There is just no need.
Top   #20



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