Element to Suit

Orenda

Recently in conversation, someone said that the assignation of fire to swords (therefore air to wands as well) was specifically a Golden Dawn correspondence. Would really appreciate feedback on this comment :)
 

Teheuti

Orenda said:
Recently in conversation, someone said that the assignation of fire to swords (therefore air to wands as well) was specifically a Golden Dawn correspondence. Would really appreciate feedback on this comment :)
Click to expand...
Go to the original GD documents. You'll find that all of them assign Fire to Wands and Air to Swords - without exception.

Gerald Gardner, in creating his version of witchcraft, assigned Fire to Swords in part to create the analogy of the blade (fire) in the cup (water) as part of the central symbolism of The Great Rite. Therefore you'll find that many of the wiccan decks use the Sword suit as fire.
 

sapienza

Teheuti is absolutely right, the Golden Dawn most definitely link fire to wands and air to swords. :) If you are interested you can see Book T online here.

You'll also find that in some of the decks that attempt a pre-Golden Dawn approach, Swords are Fire and Wands are Air (for example - Brian William's Renaissance Tarot and Nigel Jackson's Medieval Enchantment). In both these decks the link is made in relation to the temperaments of Choleric (link to fire) and Sanguine (link to air). Because the suit of swords is traditionally more 'negative' and 'challenging' than wands, the rationale is that Choleric (and therefore fire) is a better match for the swords. Interestingly these decks, especially Nigel Jackson's, still default to the Golden Dawn meanings in most cases, which leaves the system feeling a bit muddled to me.
 

Orenda

I can't thank you both enough. I did not believe it was a valid statement, but most GD references on any dignification is about astrology, or occasionally the meaning of the elements, yet never specifically elements to suits. I recommend a google search to see how maddening it is to ask for simply the element of suit in tarot using Golden Dawn as the criteria... sheesh!

Your expertise greatly appreciate :)
 

t.town.troy

I remember reading somewhere that for the fire/sword correspondence:
The metal is heated to create the sword so, fire.
And air/wand was something like:
A wand is a reed of sorts and you can blow 'air' through it.

Here's my take on the GD attributes though:
Fire - Prometheus carried fire from heaven in/on a reed/wand for mankind.
Air - A sword can 'cut' (analyze) through the air (thought) and 'sing' (sound vibrations carried through the air).

Just a random thought for this topic. :)
 

Orenda

Yeah, there are many discussions here on the assignations, and members' personal perspectives as to why specific assignations make sense to them, but my dilemma was the false statement attributing fire to the suit of swords within the Golden Dawn tradition. I truly appreciated the ability to come to this community for assistance :)
 

ravenest

t.town.troy said:
I remember reading somewhere that for the fire/sword correspondence:
The metal is heated to create the sword so, fire.
And air/wand was something like:
A wand is a reed of sorts and you can blow 'air' through it.
Click to expand...
Yes the metal is heated to create the sword, but originally the ORE was heated (extremely) to extract the metal.
Then the metal is heated, less furiously - fire
then hammered on the anvil - earth
then quenched - water
then the bellows worked to feed the fire - air
then the sword back in the fire - back to fire.

All the elements come together in a cycle.

I once knew a Smith who worked in a circle with each element (anvil, bellows, fire, water trough) at each appropriate quarter.

So the fire contact the sword directly, but not the air ... unless its a long weekend and all of ones practice partners for the saturday morning sword session are off somewhere ... I'll be cutting the air instead ;) ( ie.practising by myself :( )
 

Orenda

Now that doesn't muddy the waters for someone seeking to remember the Golden Dawn associations :p

I have asked Grigori to close this thread ;)



ETA: Clearly, he does not want to...
 

Grigori

There are a couple of reasons why there is confusion about this.

One of the reasons is that for the GD the Sword was not an Air implement. The Sword was Martial, related to Geburah and Mars and in a way fiery. However the Sword was not one of the 4 Elemental weapons.

The GD's 4 elemental weapons are the Wand, Cup, Pentacle and Dagger. Within this 4 elemental group, the Dagger is the Air implement, the Wand Fire, Cup Water and Pentacle Earth.

However, it gets confusing as other daggers (not the Air dagger, just generic ones) can be used as a martial banishing implement in the same way as the Sword. So sometimes a sword is not a Sword, or a dagger may not be a Dagger, and sometimes a dagger is a Sword :laugh: Confusing eh?!

The Tarot card suit is called Swords as that was the traditional name from the earlier decks, but really it is the suit of Air Daggers.

There are also some earlier traditions that equate the Sword to Fire, so some people use this and Gardner's switcheroo to justify an argument that the GD considered the Dagger a Fire implement. But that is not true, and for anyone who understands the system also fairly absurd. Not to say that that is wrong, but its certainly wrong from within the GD system.

Not to help matters, the GD also mistakenly mixed up the Angels for the elements in some papers, and put a traditional angel of fire into the Air groupings, so there is a grey area there too.

But 100% certain, if you're wanting to use the GD method, then Fire = Wands, and Air = Dagger/Tarot Swords.
 
This dream i keep having. (10 of Disks, Thoth) Golden Dawn Thoth Color Scales Study Group - Introduction