Chokmah/Yod and Waite

kwaw

My guess would be traditional/historical, since he is referring to Levi's work.

? Not sure what you mean by describing Levi's work on the tarot as 'traditional/historical', seems like a misnomer to me... ? Probably misunderstood you here...
 

Babalon Jones

It just means Minor Arcana.

Still odd if then all cards are "Trumps" just some designated "Trumps Major" or "Trumps Minor." I Thought he was singling out court cards in some way.
 

Richard

? Not sure what you mean by describing Levi's work on the tarot as 'traditional/historical', seems like a misnomer to me... ? Probably misunderstood you here...

Levi would not have used a Golden Dawn Tarot deck, would he?
 

Richard

Still odd if then all cards are "Trumps" just some designated "Trumps Major" or "Trumps Minor." I Thought he was singling out court cards in some way.
I think it was obviously a bad choice of terminology. I've never heard of the courts being singled out as trumps.
 

Abrac

From Waite’s comment on the Emperor in the PKT:

“He is the virile power, to which the Empress responds. . .”

and

“The Emperor has been described as (a) will in its embodied form, but this is only one of its applications. . .”

Will corresponds to fire, so the fact that the Kings are seated doesn’t prevent them from being in agreement with fire. The Emperor is also seated.

I don’t think Waite’s confused here. For him the Kings are Chokmah and Yod; the connection with fire is Will.
 

Richard

From Waite’s comment on the Emperor in the PKT:

“He is the virile power, to which the Empress responds. . .”

and

“The Emperor has been described as (a) will in its embodied form, but this is only one of its applications. . .”

Will corresponds to fire, so the fact that the Kings are seated doesn’t prevent them from being in agreement with fire. The Emperor is also seated.

I don’t think Waite’s confused here. For him the Kings are Chokmah and Yod; the connection with fire is Will.

Whether the Emperor is seated has nothing to do with his Fire attribution. He is Aries, Cardinal Fire. Likewise, whether or not a court is seated has nothing whatsoever to do with the element. It is just a way of distinguishing between Knights (horseback) and Kings (seated in chariots or on thrones).

If we are to assign masculine elements, Fire and Air, to the masculine court cards, the Knights seem more spirited (Fire), and the Kings more cerebral (Air), the other option doesn't fit as well, it seems to me.

Anyhow, if, as Kwaw contends, Waite is using GD terminology, then the horse riders are Yod and Chokmah, and the charioteers are Vau and the Microprosopus, and the elemental attributions follow from this.
 

kwaw

Anyhow, if, as Kwaw contends, Waite is using GD terminology, then the horse riders are Yod and Chokmah, and the charioteers are Vau and the Microprosopus, and the elemental attributions follow from this.

He is using GD material (as framed in relation to tarot in the fourth knowledge lecture), in relation to what Levi could have realized for himself through a better undertanding of kabbalah and applied or affirmed (again he could have done better by affirming – as it would have been easy for him) in relation to a standard deck, in which Kings are enthroned and knights are on horseback with which he (Levi) was familiar (in relation to the pages being female, there are historical examples). Of course, Levi couldn't have affirmed any such thing in relation to future GD re-conceptions of charioteers and horsemen, but could have easiy applied and affirmed it in relation to standard decks of his own time as King/Chokmah/Yod, Queen/Binah/Heh; etc,. He is simply saying that if Levi had realized the pages rather as feminine, then the relationship to the name YHVH and the placement on the tree would have followed. The question of whether the King is seated on a throne, a horse, a chariot or a potty is irrelevant, Waite is not discussing their design but their relation to the tree which Levi could have easily affirmed: the King is attributed to Yod and situated at Chokmah (as Mathers does in the GD knowledge lecture).
 

Abrac

True, whether or not they are seated really is irrelevant; the point with the Emperor is just this—1. The Emperor's seated. 2. Waite says he's "will in its embodied form." 3. Will = fire. 4. In Waite's mind, a figure can be seated and still be associated with fire. It doesn't have to be on horseback.

kwaw, I agree if I understand you. Waite didn't hold his position because Mathers taught it; Mathers' doctrine is in harmony with the Kabbalah and it's for this reason Waite accepted it. Levi could have reached a similar view from his study of Kabbalah—in Waite's opinion.

One point of departure from the GD for Waite is the use of Daath as governor of the six Sephiroth in the world of formation. As far as I know this wasn't taught in the GD, at least I've never come across it. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Waite's four worlds would eventually evolve into something completely different from the GD.
 

kwaw

One point of departure from the GD for Waite is the use of Daath as governor of the six Sephiroth in the world of formation. As far as I know this wasn't taught in the GD, at least I've never come across it. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

The divine name of Tiphareth or Zair Anpin (Microscopus -Chesed to Yesod) is Jehovah Aloah va Daath, or simply Aloah va Daath...
 

Abrac

Good information. Does that mean Daath as governor was taught in the GD?