Study Notes: Chrisitan Astrology

Opinion

It doesn't have to be, so. Many of Lilly's readings are shorter and all are incredibly shorter than the 30-50 pages which have now become common, thanks to computers.

As with all things one can take an overview - is the ship OK; and provide a yes or no answer. Then, if the querent (client) asks for more detail, the Astrologer can burrow down to the (,client,) desired level. Lilly would only give sufficient information to satisfy the client.

Consider your own approach to natal Astrology:. This may entail not only the use of nine planets plus various points including midbpoints , aspect patterns, co,-descendants, vertices, etc but also the analysis of derived charts such as solar returns, progressed using precession correction, lunar returns, solar lunar returns all of which might be progressed on a daily basis. I've probably missed several other steps that you would do, but all of them are justified and part of a system. To you it is straightforward and simple.

To the client or indeed to some other Astrologers, the result might well appear detailed, complex and parts of it arcane - yet you know it works! You would also never drop all that complexity and detail on a client but cut it down to what is sufficient to answer their questions.

From this distance in time many of the techniques used by Lilly or Valens, both practicing Astrologers, seem awfully arcane. There is a struggle to master even first principles. I found the same sort of difficulties pproaching your methods for the first time but perseverance taught me a lot and showed me an underlying systematic approach. The study was rewarding, despite the initial difficulty.. I might not routinely use those methods but that study has coloured my approach.

In the same way studying Lilly or Valens doesn't have to lead to slavishn reproduction but it does give an awareness of a systematic and grounded approach to Astrology which is almost totally lacking in the modern version that we have both abandoned... Though in different directions.

Hope you are still doing well and wishing you all the very best for 2017!!

As a student, all I can say is

it doesn't matter to me whether a technique is simple or complex. What matters is that it works, and can lead to prediction of concrete events and time them, and answer concrete questions clearly. Or it doesn't work, (simple or not) and can be abandoned.

It helps that I'm *not* a professional astrologer, and am concerned only with analyzing charts of friends and family (except for learning)

I was desperately trying to get away from post Alan Leo psychology drenched ,Jungian claptrap when I found Fagan's techniques based on angularity and Solar and Lunar returns. In my experience, these work really well for timing, sometimes to very specific days..

But I wasn't very happy with the 'predictive' bits of this system, which seemed to interpret the planets as parts of a person's psyche vs signifying concrete things in the world around the querent. Thus Saturn is the 'principle of self denial' or whatever. Likewise predictions would be about what the querent would *feel like* on a specific day.

I don't really want *my practice* to be about predicting what people *feel like*, vs concrete events. Strictly personal preference. Not saying this is a superior choice.

Ben Dykes's book on ancient/medieval astrology was a total eye opener for me with regard to how important dealing with concrete events and situations is. As is having a well thought out underlying philosophy.

I still practice Fagan's timing methods. They work really well.

But I'm also learning Lilly and Valens now (and eventually Sahl, and Mashallah, touch wood). because these systems attempt to answer concrete questions and time them.

Especially with Horary. This has a clear feedback system, which give you a method to answer very concrete questions. Practice will reveal soon enough whether you are predicting correctly or not, or even if the system works or not.

I don't practice blindly. I still use a Sidereal Zodiac and Placidus houses for my personal practice, though I'm *considering* moving to WSH, as long as I can keep Fagan style timing techniques.

My interest is (only) in timing concrete events. I use this a filter to winnow working techniques and systems from those that don't. As I said above, I'm not a professional astrologer, and so don't really mind if the resulting system is unorthodox, or not modern or whatever, as long as it *works*.

All that said, I think Dave's books are delightful, (I have both). I haven't yet been able to verify the Transiting Moon on Natal Sun based cycles, but the same *technique* applied to Transiting Moon to natal *Moon* certainly seem to work.

More work is underway. I'm just not posting study notes etc here, because that would violate copyright, something we don't have to worry about with, say, Valens. I heartily reccomend both books to anyone looking for a very different, but very well thought out system.

PS: Good to have you back here Dave, you've been gone a while.

Starting the next chapter.

Memorizing all procedures is taking too much time, and should probably be left to a second pass of the book, after one pass is finished.

That said, the detailed study (and memorization )of the generic procedure and the procedure to answer a definite question was very useful, since it reveals the basic structure of Lilly's teaching - first he gives a generic procedure to answer any horary question. Then he adds more specialized 'things to look for' and intrerpretive guidance to specific questions.

Ok onward.

Chapter 27: Judgments concerning the Second House.

Questions answered.
1. Whether the querent will be rich and/or have a 'competent fortune'
2. By what means shall he attain it?
3. When (relative to the moment of the horary chart)?
4. Will this fortune endure?

The ascendant lord and Moon are the querent's significators
When the question is in general terms, i.e, a general question like "Will I be rich?" vs a more specific question related to a particular project, business, plan etc, the resolution method is as follows.

1. Look at the sign on the 2nd House Cusp, its Lord, any aspects cast into the sign, or to the Lord, any planets in the sign.
2. Do the same for Part of Fortune. Examine its sign, lord of the sign, aspects received (PoF is a point and does not cast aspects)
3. Look at the angularity of the planets (also of PoF?). In angular and succedent signs => a good chance at being rich (and by implication, cadent planets dont?)
4. Likewise, look at the essential dignity, speed of motion etc.
5. Examine any aspects between Lord of Ascendant (or Moon) and Lord of the 2nd. Conjunction, Sextile and Trine bode well for being rich.
6. The benefics being in good aspects (conjunction, sextile, trine) to the Lord of the 2nd House or the Part of Fortune is a positive testimony.
7. The Lord of the Ascendant or Moon being in the second is positive
8. The Lord of the 2nd being in the second, or some planet transfering the virtue of the 2nd Lord to the Lord of the Ascendant.
9. A fixed star of the nature of Jupiter or Venus is conjunct (or near) the Lord of the 2nd, or Part of Fortune.
10. Jupiter, Venus, or Part of Fortune in the 2nd, with no malefic aspect cast onto them (Jupiter, Venus, PoF)

All the above are positive testimonies for being rich. By implication, their converses are testimonies *against* being rich (e.g: I have South Node in my natal 2nd house LOL). Adapt to the known nature and quality of the querent.

I suspect the above guidelines would also work perfectly with a natal chart. The testimonies would then about the potential in *life* to be rich. I havethe horoscope of a friend with Jupiter in the 2nd, who is rolling in money (and opportunities to make money) even while holding down a poor quality (of life) job.

I wonder if Lilly isn't teaching us natal astrology in parallel with Horary.

In the last entry, the focus was on the factors that ensure (or otherwise) a 'competent fortune'.

Now Lilly says, once you (the astrologer) has answered the 'will he be rich' question in the affirmative, the next question will be 'how' or 'by what means'.

Lilly delineates what happens when the Lord of the 2nd, or the Part of Fortune, or another planet related to the second Lord, by good aspect for example, is in the n-th house, or rules the n-th house.. A lot of it is structured to a medieval world, but the essence is that the 'how' will have a signification of the house.

E.g: "If the Lord of the 5th doe promise Wealth, then he obtaines meanes: if a Gentleman (by Play,Cards, Dice, Sports, Pastimes) if of Capacity, and a Courtier, by some Embassage, Message, etc. If an ordinary man propounds the question, by keeping a Victualling-house, as Ale-house, Inne,Taverne, Bowling alley, or being a Door-keeper, Porter to some Gentleman; or be he who will that enquires, if the Lord of the 5th House be strong, he promises somewhat out of the Estate of the Father, or by making Matches, etc.."

Reverse engineering this, we get 5th house significances - gambling, games, Fathers fortune (2nd of 4th) etc which is then customized to the social role / occupation of the querent (gentleman, 'ordinary man' etc). This can carry over into our times. No problem.

For example, one of the fifth house significances is 'children'. Generalizing, we get 'creation'. So for a modern querent, one could say that the querent would get rich via creation of artifacts of the nature of the Lord of the fifth house - if Venus, works of art, or financial instruments, say.

RohanMenon said:

I suspect the above guidelines would also work perfectly with a natal chart. The testimonies would then about the potential in *life* to be rich. I havethe horoscope of a friend with Jupiter in the 2nd, who is rolling in money (and opportunities to make money) even while holding down a poor quality (of life) job.

I wonder if Lilly isn't teaching us natal astrology in parallel with Horary.

Click to expand...

He is! For him, the same general techniques would be used in natal Astrology, where there is a known date, time and place of birth. You will find very similar guidance when you get on to Book III, which is concerned with the natal side. Lilly doesn't see Horary as something totally different from Natal; as Modern Astrologers will tend to do.

RohanMenon said:

In the last entry, the focus was on the factors that ensure (or otherwise) a 'competent fortune'.

Now Lilly says, once you (the astrologer) has answered the 'will he be rich' question in the affirmative, the next question will be 'how' or 'by what means'.

Lilly delineates what happens when the Lord of the 2nd, or the Part of Fortune, or another planet related to the second Lord, by good aspect for example, is in the n-th house, or rules the n-th house.. A lot of it is structured to a medieval world, but the essence is that the 'how' will have a signification of the house.

E.g: "If the Lord of the 5th doe promise Wealth, then he obtaines meanes: if a Gentleman (by Play,Cards, Dice, Sports, Pastimes) if of Capacity, and a Courtier, by some Embassage, Message, etc. If an ordinary man propounds the question, by keeping a Victualling-house, as Ale-house, Inne,Taverne, Bowling alley, or being a Door-keeper, Porter to some Gentleman; or be he who will that enquires, if the Lord of the 5th House be strong, he promises somewhat out of the Estate of the Father, or by making Matches, etc.."

Reverse engineering this, we get 5th house significances - gambling, games, Fathers fortune (2nd of 4th) etc which is then customized to the social role / occupation of the querent (gentleman, 'ordinary man' etc). This can carry over into our times. No problem.

For example, one of the fifth house significances is 'children'. Generalizing, we get 'creation'. So for a modern querent, one could say that the querent would get rich via creation of artifacts of the nature of the Lord of the fifth house - if Venus, works of art, or financial instruments, say.

Click to expand...

Lilly uses the old traditional approach that can be traced back to Hellenistic times, look where the ruler of the house you're concerned with lies in the chart. The house or place it is in tells you about it's power (angularity) and it's topical manifestation. So ruler of the second in the seventh is most likely to mean you get your money through marriage - marry someone wealthy! In Lilly's day pre-nups were rare, though not unheard of. For most males, the wife's wealth came with her.

Again the same concept can (and is) applied to natal Astrology. Yes he did look at seventeenth century occupations but you look at that fifth house list and you can see the Leisure Industry, and Hotel and Catering Industries quite clearly, even down to the bowling alley!

You also need to think laterally as well. The fifth house is concerned with Children, so the querent might earn their money from such activities as Paediatric medicine, child care, or running a children's amusement park. None of these were prominent in Lilly's time, but they are in the modern world.

Thank You Minderwiz

for a great reply!
Enlightening, as always.

I used the fifth house as an example, because in my horoscope (Gemini Rising) the Moon (lord of 2nd) lies in the fifth ;-)

Why the querent shall *not* obtain wealth.

This obviously assumes that the "whether he shall be rich" question has been answered "no".

Carefully observe the planet obstructing, or most afflicting, the Lord of the 2nd and/or Part of Fortune and/or Cusp of 2nd House, or Lord of PoF.

If this planet is Lord of the 1st, the querent himself is the cause.
If lord of the second opposes/squares PoF, cusp of 2nd, then want of sufficient money to set himself up in business is the cause
If the afflicting planet is Lord of 3d, kindred will do nothing, prove burdensome, or malicious
So on through all the 12 houses.

Lilly cautions that 'malefics' if properly placed can produce riches, and 'benefics' prevent such.

Also the South Node, in whichever house it is in causes detriment and impediment in things denoted by the house. If in the second, he denotes the native not thriving by his own folly. (ouch! I have the South Node in my 2nd house and this rings true!)

And so on for the 12 houses.

By Lilly's time Sect was no longer considered important. So by proper place, Lilly means not afflicting the Second by aspect or presence and in their own sign, exaltation, triplicity or even Terms. Saturn in Aquarius can be very positive (though achieved through hard work, mental or physical). Mars in Aries or Scorpio can be positive (especially Mars in Scorpio as there is less rash or bold actions and more thinking).

Valens would agree with much of that, though with the qualification for Saturn in a Day chart and for Mars in a Night chart.

Lilly also allows the Benefics to be accidentally malefic by ruling the sixth, eighth or twelfth. Also placed in Detriment of Fall they can be quite negative. It's Venus not Neptune that rules drunkeness, and drugs. Jupiter can encourage excessive behaviour when in Detriment or Fall

Yes I see how the 'benefics' can be negative

and the malefics positive. Saturn in Aquarius (and ideally a day chart) is a very instructive example.

Working through Valens and Lilly, I'm astounded by how well *both* systems work, and how much (for lack of a better word) both systems are *coherent*. When I was trying to master Modern Astrology, I was scrounging for nuggets of usable technique, which never worked consistently even when I found a rare clearly explained technique.

With Valens and Lilly, I'm completely blown away by how effective their techniques are, and that too at such a minimal level of knowledge (that I have presently).

Lots more to learn. I'm very thankful that I was finally led to these branches (and authors) in astrology, and of course very thankful for your explanations and corrections!