Justice and Strength as Soul or Personality Cards - A Poll

Based on my experience with a Soul/Personality Card:

  • VIII is Justice

    Votes: 5 35.7%
  • VIII is Strength

    Votes: 6 42.9%
  • XI is Justice

    Votes: 6 42.9%
  • XI is Strength

    Votes: 5 35.7%

  • Total voters
    14

Michael Sternbach

Hi Aeclectics,

This poll is an idea that I have been walking around with for a while and that was finally triggered by the new thread entitled "Justice and Strength".

http://tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=238321

If you have some spare time, please read my post #14 there for the background to this poll.

If you haven't, here is the short version:

As probably all moderately advanced Tarot lovers know, there is an endless debate whether the card Justice (or Adjustment for a "Thothie" like myself) is VIII and Strength (a.k.a. Lust) are supposed to be Trumps VIII and XI like i.e. in all the older decks - or vice versa, like in the Golden Dawn based decks, including the RWS and virtually all its derivatives.

There have been many speculations in support of either version, but some time ago, it occurred to me that a better approach to illuminating this issue might be to actually ask those people who have one of those cards as their Soul/Personality Card.

For those of you who don't know how to determine their Soul/Personality Cards, no worries - it's easy!

Simply add up the month, day and year of your birth, then calculate the summary until you arrive at a number no bigger than 22 (22 would be The Fool, imo, but this doesn't matter here).

For example, if your birth day happened to be the February 25 1970, the calculation would look like this: 2 + 25 + 1970 = 1997 = 1 + 9 + 9 + 7 = 26 = 2 + 6 = 8

So, those of you whose number is 8 (or 17, which further reduces to 8), please vote for the card which you think describes you better:

Justice (Adjustment) if you are rather the introspective, balanced and meditative type.

Strength (Lust) if you are more of an outgoing, powerful type who does know how to enjoy themselves.

Those of you whose number is 11, instead go to the other couple of options and do likewise.

You can actually also join this poll if your number is a different one, but there happens to be a number 8 and/or 11 amongst your close associates. But if you do vote for another person, please do so only if you know them really well!

Be free to tell us more about your experience of being a number 8 or 11 on this thread!

Thank you for joining this research project.

Michael
 

Scarlet Woodland

My personality card is 11 and Justice definitely suits me better... but, just to set a cat amongst the pigeons, I am also a (rather atypical) Leo. For me this suggests strength in XI as the road not taken... with different childhood experiences strength could easily have been my card.
 

Amanda

I think Justice suits me better as a personality, but I wouldn't change its placement.

Just for reference, my number is 8, but a Taurus ruled by Venus which also rules Libra, yes? Perhaps there is a connection there.
 

Michael Sternbach

My personality card is 11 and Justice definitely suits me better... but, just to set a cat amongst the pigeons, I am also a (rather atypical) Leo. For me this suggests strength in XI as the road not taken... with different childhood experiences strength could easily have been my card.

This may reflect that there is validity to both views. I consider this a real possibility, for the time being.

However, telling from my experience as an astrologer, how one's childhood experiences shape one's personality is anything but coincidental.
 

Michael Sternbach

I think Justice suits me better as a personality, but I wouldn't change its placement.

Glad that you chime in, Amanda.

You are setting a good example for others here insofar you try to be objective about yourself although you are used to a type of deck that contradicts what you find.

Just for reference, my number is 8, but a Taurus ruled by Venus which also rules Libra, yes? Perhaps there is a connection there.

That wouldn't make you a Libra though, much less a Justice/Adjustment type. I will have a fresh look at your natal chart later. I frequently find someone's Soul/Personality cards reflected in their chart, one way or another. But I haven't observed so far that a chart would account for a prevailing card archetype that not in keeping with the individual's date of birth. Rather, Tarot numerology and astrology frequently come together synchronistically.

Just to spice things up a little: Introspective as you may be, you do come over as a confident and powerful personality, bringing the Strength card to mind. ;)
 

Michael Sternbach

But we should be careful not to think that every Justice/Adjustment type needs to be a blissfully meditating Buddha, some might be seeking their balance rather than perfectly display it. However, I would expect the theme to play an important role in their life, one way or another, with recurring phases of self-attunement, at least, and a certain meditative quality overall.

Nor is every Strength/Lust personality necessarily a "happy go lucky" type. Some tend to be quite depressed under the surface. However, the card would still describe an important part of theirs.
 

Michael Sternbach

Amanda,

I had another look at your chart: The features that most obviously represent that meditative and introspective part of yours are the Sun and the Moon in the 12th house.

Regarding your more outgoing side, you have Mercury and Venus (the dispositors of the Sun and the Moon respectively) in the 1st house, with the Sun (although in 12th) relatively close to the Ascendent.

Certainly, your chart is rather balanced overall, especially if we look at the distribution of the planets in the four elements and the three qualities (cardinal, fixed, mutable).

I think Justice suits me better as a personality, but I wouldn't change its placement.

Just for reference, my number is 8, but a Taurus ruled by Venus which also rules Libra, yes? Perhaps there is a connection there.
 

Amanda

Just to spice things up a little: Introspective as you may be, you do come over as a confident and powerful personality, bringing the Strength card to mind. ;)

You are not the first to say something similar! :D

Amanda,

I had another look at your chart: The features that most obviously represent that meditative and introspective part of yours are the Sun and the Moon in the 12th house.

Regarding your more outgoing side, you have Mercury and Venus (the dispositors of the Sun and the Moon respectively) in the 1st house, with the Sun (although in 12th) relatively close to the Ascendent.

Certainly, your chart is rather balanced overall, especially if we look at the distribution of the planets in the four elements and the three qualities (cardinal, fixed, mutable).

Not to throw another wrench in things, but as a current graduate student, I am required to do a lot of introspection regarding my personality and leadership "type". My leadership "type" would point to Strength-qualities. Not because I am extraverted/outgoing, but because I am relational as opposed to task oriented. That is, the introspective measures I have been doing over this last year or so suggest that I achieve positive outcomes through building solid relationships with people and earning their trust to follow me as a leader. I am not an exceptionally charismatic leader 'type' -- I am relational and build relationships based on morals and ethics -- (which is another wrench in things here, perhaps since those qualities are more closely related to Justice). But overall, the assessments I have completed and instructor feedback I have received suggest that I am a relational style leader; people come first, tasks come a close second. Humanities (Strength) vs. Outcomes (Justice). I care more about others' quality of life and quality of work, slightly ahead of simply accomplishing a task or achieving an outcome.
 

violetdaisy

Can I be both? Being strong and being balanced is a big challenge for someone with bipolar so I think both play a huge part as my life lesson. (I am an 8 not an 11)
 

Philistine

Yeesh, I dunno. I admit I don't really mix my astrology with my tarot (Temperance rx, anyone??), but I'm sure one day I will get bored and need another layer. That said, I admit to cheating and reducing my 11 to 2 because 1) I resent Waite's mucking up the 8/11 thing and I get more insight in my readings from the Pythagorean association of 8 with Justice; so to avoid the 8/11 thing altogether I just reduce 11 to 2. And 2) I am MUCH more a High Priestess than either Justice or Strength.

I could write an essay on the Justice card vis-à-vis the 8's of each suit, and what 8 means generally in numerology, but I won't bore us here.

All that said, I'm a pre-Waite deck reader for the most part, but often turn to RWS when I'm not in the mood for numerology and blunt cartomancy.