The Visconti - and the Marseilles

Sophie

Scion, you can be my philosophy professor any time.

Very clearly argued, and at last someone who defines, specifies and tells us what the Diable we are talking about!

As for the substance of your propos, I need a bit more time to digest it. What I'd been thinking, actually, was that this discussion was veering between the neo-platonic, the scholastic and the good old-fashioned fist-fight.

First thought -possibly false, but...
Tarot and its iconography is medieval in origin, therefore likely to be more Aristotelian. However, it really took off in the late Renaissance -early modern times as a reading deck, so could be considered Platonician. The makers of the TdM are practical men: so I'd plump for Aristotle. The readers are more etherial and esoteric: so it's Plato. Deux partout.

Is there a reconciler? a way of aspiring to the Divine, but outside that bloody cave, in the world? (and preferably, with Tarot, while we are at it - for that I would refer everyone to Silvia's post)

Scion

Helvetica said:
First thought -possibly false, but...
Tarot and its iconography is medieval in origin, therefore likely to be more Aristotelian. However, it really took off in the late Renaissance -early modern times as a reading deck, so could be considered Platonician. The makers of the TdM are practical men: so I'd plump for Aristotle. The readers are more etherial and esoteric: so it's Plato. Deux partout.

Which is exactly my point! Yay! I just did a happy dance around my loft...

Plato and Aristotle are always in the room together... Even before Aristotle, Plato has Socrates and Heraclitus and Anaxamander (etc etc) to contend with. It's always a dialectic. It's like the tree in the forest; if there is no reader there is no Tarot. I have a sense that the reason Tarot remains resonant and continues to evolve, is BECAUSE it is an unsolvable puzzle that is endlessly reconfigured: the Journey and NOT the destination. The one thing that Tarot teaches all of us is to look closer . And anyone who's paying attention eventually notices that life is full of paradox and contradiction.

I am reminded of a poem by Michael McClure... actually a line from it:

There is a mystery in this life like a candle and it is moving.
I would be as perfect as a moth.

Scion

ihcoyc

Helvetica said:
Something strange happens to me when I take out my Marseille cards. I haven't had them very long. I have a Héron Conver deck, the reproduction. I feel all the centuries of fascination, of careful handling and careless shoving in back-pockets. I hear in whispers the thousands of meanings and interpretations attached to this flower, that mitre, that number. I see the carvers busy at their woodblocks, good artisans carrying out a beautiful trade, absorbed in it, but probably thinking of their young woman and the next saint's holiday. I like to think that certain expressions they captured in the faces and bodies were those they saw about them, as well as conventional signs and symbols which had been in use for centuries. I dream of a long chain of hands passing the deck, one to the other, some respectfully, some indifferent, some horrified, some reverend, some interested. Now they have come into my hands and I look through them, bemused, moved, curious.

I wish I had said this myself. This is it, exactly.

My own political and religious instincts are such that I react with an almost instinctive negativity to hierarchy, class, and authority. For this reason, I don't want a tarot from Egyptian sages or Atlantean kings. I don't want a tarot from a secret society. I don't want the Great White Brotherhood's tarot. I want the "people's Tarot."

Sophie

Dark Inquisitor said:
I own a Marseilles deck, but I do not deify it. It can be questioned. I question myself and my own perceptions.

It is possible to love something (or someone) without deifing it. In fact, it is preferable

Diana

Helvetica said:
Is there a reconciler? a way of aspiring to the Divine, but outside that bloody cave, in the world? (and preferably, with Tarot, while we are at it - for that I would refer everyone to Silvia's post)

I think there are two reconcilers. Because there are always two sides to the Divine - The Divine created both God and the Devil.

And then we also have Le Bateleur (what is)... and Le Mât (what the Bateleur becomes). (But that is another story - maybe.)

Fulgour

ihcoyc said:
I want the "people's Tarot."

Often when looking at these images I sense that a lovingly deliberate
effort was made to keep the cards looking and feeling like the property
of the commoners ~ they say, we are like you, of the world you know.

TemperanceAngel

I have always wondered this question myself! I have really enjoyed this thread.

But, I am still waiting for Diana to tell us about her love for the Marseilles in her own words

Please Diana, we would all love to read what you have to say. I don't think it would be opinionated at all, it will come from your heart and it will be the truth according to how you feel. There is nothing wrong with that!

I could quote so many people in this thread, there are too many. Thank you all for sharing your love

Shalott

Rusty Neon said:
There is not just one pattern of Tarot de Marseille, but several (e.g., Dodal, Noblet, Conver, etc.). While on the whole there are shared features between those patterns, there are differences too. These differences are more than just a few "dots".

Yes, my post is imperfect, not an Ur-Post...I let myself engage in a bit of hyperbole.

This is getting fascinating BTW....

Parzival

The Visconti and the Marseilles

This thread really searches through towards truth, a refreshing, inspiring forward motion by all. Coleridge said that everyone is born either a Platonist or an Aristotelian --- but he's off track, I think. Everyone's got both in his or her soul, and everyone needs "Temperance" to mix and blend them. Tarot is in manifest form, obviously, so it's Aristotelian ; it has number and color and title, tangibles to see and consider. But Tarot has its higher invisible Truths, Mercurial Mind of the Magician, Lunar Mind of the High Priestess, Whole Mind of the World. It points down into printer's tools, up into Kabbalistic higher planes. I'm not sure if this makes sense or not, so time to stop.
One more thought,though. The Ur-Tarot comes from Goethe's idea of the Ur-plant. He thought all plant forms come from an original leaf-like first pattern. He tried to sketch the Ur-plant for his friend, Schiller --- a simple few pencil strokes . Schiller said : " That is not experience ! It's an idea!" So maybe the Ur-Tarot is the first actual Tarot from which all subsequent Tarots develop, like Goethe's first leaf-form, or maybe it's the Idea out of which all Tarots materialize. Maybe it depends on how Aristotle dominant or Plato dominant I am or you are. There must be a middle ground to this, I hope.

Cerulean

I enjoyed ihcoyc's reply about the people's tarot...

ihcoyc's reply about the the people's tarot:
"My own political and religious instincts are such that I react with an almost instinctive negativity to hierarchy, class, and authority... I want the "people's Tarot."

I had a curiousity why some tarots and playing cards turned to mythology at certain periods of time and wondered how the seeds of the French Revolution permeated the costume and choice of characters on certain decks...

This specialty playing card manufacturer suggested some European cards around 1792 had figures based more on agrarian figures or mythology because of French influence:

http://www.mthoodcards.com/cgi-bin/europe.py?file=pre/countrev

..a re-creation of a pack of cards that was published in Paris, France, in 1792, at the height of the French Revolution. At the time, any reference, however innocent, to royalty, was a very serious offense to the prevailing law of the land. As a result, consumers of playing cards were unable to obtain or even own decks with the traditional Jacks, Queens and Kings as the court cards. This gave card makers a chance to exercise their creativity by producing decks with truly original court faces. This is one such deck with the Jacks and Queens being represented by agricultural workers and the Kings by classical mythological figures.

Granted, they are showing a recreated decks as well as mixing up playing card history with their own explanations of handmade cards...my point to the fanciers of antique French tarots after 1792 might have a few historical points as well as their joy in feeling they have a 'people's tarot' ...I hope this adds to your enjoyment...

Regards,

Cerulean

The Visconti - and the Marseilles

Sophie

Scion

ihcoyc

Sophie

Diana

Fulgour

TemperanceAngel

Shalott

Parzival

Cerulean