Defined Versus Undefined Spreads

northsea

Many spreads have specific meanings for each card placement, e.g. the seven planets spread would have mercury attached to place #1 etc. Other spreads, are less defined, maybe just row 1=past, 2=present, 3=future. There's also the option of having no predefined meanings for any placements, but to gather the message of the cards strictly from how they interact in the spread. I'm wondering when or if people prefer defined or undefined spreads or something in between.
 

le fey

I prefer defined although I often draw two or three cards per defined space if I feel so inclined. (That is, I don't have an issue with combining cards to get meaning, but I like some structure to the conversation with the cards).

A spread to me is like a pre-selected set of questions on a subject... like conducting an interview, or planning ahead to make sure an article or essay covers the sub-topics you want to be sure to include.

No spread is like saying 'what's up?' to someone dealing with a multitude of issues - you may get an answer, but it may or may not include the parts you really need to know. A spread is like saying "So how is the job going?" "And what do you plan to do next weekend?" - it leads to actual answers (for me).

There's also the option of not doing a predetermined spread, but taking the reading in parts. "What is important now?" (lay 2-3 cards) Then, depending on what those reveal, asking the next question... the cards say its important that you pay attention to your car. You can now ask "What is happening with my car that needs attention?" (lay a couple more cards) "Ok, how can I find some extra money to pay for that?" (lay a couple more cards) and so on... you're using spread positions, you're just not pre-guessing which ones you need to include, just like talking with someone else - the conversation takes the direction it takes based on what each half brings up.

Last thought - I cannot cope with big strings of cards and no positions. It is like someone reading random dictionary entries to me... yes, you got a whole lotta words there, but no grammar to string them together meaningfully.
 

northsea

I haven't used undefined spreads, I guess for some of the reasons you've mentioned, le fey. I wonder if there's any books that explain undefined spreads.

le fey said:
There's also the option of not doing a predetermined spread, but taking the reading in parts. "What is important now?" (lay 2-3 cards) Then, depending on what those reveal, asking the next question...

This option, a "decision branch" of sorts, seems as though it would be good for finding answers when the questions themselves aren't yet apparent. I'll have to try it out! Thanks.
 

rwcarter

I also prefer spreads with defined positions unless I'm using elemental dignities and an odd number of cards.

Recently I was IMing with this person (who isn't on Aeclectic) who had just done this amazing (their emphasis, not mine) reading about their relationship that they wanted to share with me. They emailed me the reading and my reaction was :confused: to the nth degree. The reading was ostensibly about the future of their romantic relationship with their partner. It was a 5 card cross without defined positions. (I don't consider center, above, below, left and right to be defined positions....) The reading discussed custody issues, the partner's support for an endeavor the reader is undertaking, the partner as role model, etc. I could see how those interpretations came from the cards that were drawn, but I still don't see how those interpretations fit in with a question concerning "romantic relationship."

I expressed my confusion about the reading to this person and even tried to explain how it's impossible for someone else to follow along and provide input on a spread that doesn't use defined positions. (I also tried to explain how/why I felt the interpretations didn't fit the question.) And now I'm persona non grata with this person cause I didn't ooh and aah over their reading and their skills as a reader.

If reading without defined positions works for one, then :thumbsup:. But don't expect other people to be able to necessarily follow along.

Rodney
 

Alta

I can (occasionally) read for myself with undefined spreads, but it is much harder to read for other people.

This is the third post in Your Readings rules thread and think Thirteen expresses exactly how I feel about this topic:

A while back Thirteen posted the following, and while I have disguised it so the poster involved doesn't feel embarrassed, it does explain how baffled folks, including me, get when trying to be helpful with this kind of reading.... and why they don't get as many or as helpful responses:
Thirteen said:
So you didn't do a spread with actual spread positions, you just laid out seven cards. That makes it easy for you, but, again, very hard for us because you know yourself and your situation and can read more into what the cards might be telling you. I mean, looking at your question: "Tell me what I need to know..." About what? I don't know what you're situation is. Do you need to know about a lover? A job? Your family? Your health? All those things? And if so...which card is telling you about what?

It's a pretty vague question. And in addition, you're doing a spread that involves no positions. So I can't look at the "10/Swords" and say, "This is in the position of work, it looks like you're going to have a tough time at your job."

Let me give you a better example of what I mean here. There's a thread in the "Using" section about someone who got the 10/Swords. She looked at the card and realized that it was simply reminding her of her acupuncture appointment. Which is pretty cool...maybe your 10/Swords is saying the same thing to you. If you did a real spread, and had a "health" position, then I might suggest back pains and problems and, yes, maybe acupuncture if you got the 10/Swords in that "Health" position. But a 10/Swords laid out with no spread? I've no idea. There are SO many things it could mean about any situation in your life at all. Swords can refer to mental activity, illness, legal issues, science, ideas, gossip....the list goes on.

You're tossing 7 cards at us, no positions, a vague question, no idea of what's going on in your life that these cards might refer to...and you asking us what we think?

Actually. I do have an answer as to what I think these cards are all about:

Ace/Swords--you get the idea to flip seven cards off the top into no particular spread with no focused question (Ace/Swords = and idea with no focus, unfocused communication--that is, not even the tarot can clearly communicate with you).

The swords freak you out (9/Swords) and you decide to consult this forum (King/Swords), which makes you feel better (Strength--what a blessing! The tarot forum is there to help me understand this garbled message).

10/Swords: you're told that us readers can't help you because what you've given us is too unfocused. Your hope for an answer is "killed".....

You need to step back--4/Swords--rest your mind, and see this from a different perspective--Hanged Man.

On-line readings don't work well if the person asking about them doesn't give the reader a clear question, a clear spread and a clear background on the situation. Even though there are a lot of experts and wise folk here--King/Swords--such a lack of information with just a bunch of cards will tend to leave communication unfocused--Ace/Swords--and likely--9/Swords--to scare you with fears that might not exist and--10/Swords--to kill communication.

What do you think? Could that be what this reading is all about? Swords do relate, very much, to communication, especially verbal and in writing and certainly over the internet.
 

rwcarter

Wish I had remembered Thirteen's post when I was dealing with the person from my anecdote. It would've saved me a lot of typing and trying to word things in a helpful but non-critical way! (Although I'd still be considered an a**h*l* for not worshiping the ground they walk on! :laugh:)

Rodney
 

northsea

Good quote from Thirteen. I think you guys have underscored some difficulties that I'd face with the undefined approach. What about the semi-defined, past/present/future, does anyone use that alot?
 

rwcarter

I believe the PPF spread still works best with a specific question, but even without one, you still have something to work with for interpreting the cards.