Vices/Virtues/Triumphs

le pendu

Hi Everyone,

I'm new here, but have been researching a lot of the posts and really enjoy reading your thoughts on Tarot history. I have couple of ideas I would like some feedback on.

Last year I came across Giotto's Virtues and Vices, and feel convinced (as Decker is mentioned to be in the Encylopedia of Tarot) that they (or something based on them) played a major part in the development of the tarot.

I wonder if most of the cards in the our current deck can be attributed to 3 origins?

1. Giottos Virtues and Vices
2. Petrarch's Triumps
3. Imperatori

If there were an original 14 card deck, I'd suggest a deck made of just the virtues and vices. With the vice of Foolishness being the first trump taken by it's virtue Prudence; Inconstancy (wheel) the third trump taken by Fortitude... etc. This would be an extremely easy system to understand/remember with a built-in hierarchy.

I'm particularly interested in the Vices. Just looking at the iconography, I can't help but notice the similarities to many of the Major Arcana. In fact, if indeed some of our cards come from here, it would explain WHY some of the more "mysterious" cards are included.

So here's my suggestion for a combination created from the Virtues/Vices/Triumphs:

Virtues
--------
Prudence - Missing
Fortitude
Temperance
Justice
Faith - Missing except for Cary-Yale (or Pope???)
Charity - Missing except for Cary-Yale
Hope - Missing except for Cary-Yale

Vices
--------
Foolishness - Fool
Inconstancy - Wheel of Fortune
Ira - Missing
Injustice - Tower
Infidelity - Missing (or Popess???)
Envy - Devil
Desperation - Hanged man

Triumphs
------------
Love - Lovers
Chastity - Triumphal Chariot
Death - Death
Fame - World
Time - Hermit
Eternity - Angel

or our contemporary sequence:

Fool - Vice of Foolishness
Bagatto
Popess - Vice of Infidelity
Empress
Emperor
Pope - Virtue of Faith
Lovers - Triumph of Love
Chariot - Triumph of Chastity
Justice - Virtue of Justice
Hermit - Triumph of Time
Wheel of Fortune - Vice of Inconstancy
Strength - Virtue of Fortitude
Hanged Man - Vice of Desperation
Death - Triumph of Death
Temperance - Virtue of Temperance
Devil - Vice of Envy
Tower - Vice of Injustice
Star
Moon
Sun
Angel - Triumph of Eternity
World - Triumph of Fame

This scenerio would explain most of the cards. Perhaps the Star, Moon and Sun cards were added as a set at a later point.

That would leave The Bagatto, Popess, Pope, Emperor and Empress unaccounted for. I'm not sure my suggested Faith/Infidelity - Pope/Popess relationship is accurate, but it would create an explanation for how the Popess got into the deck, so let's leave it for now.

Assume the Emperor and Empress are leftovers from an Imperatori deck, then we have only the Bagatto to account for; which I would place with the Triumphs, representing "man" who is triumphed by Love. I can't think of any other reason for his presence in the deck.

Now consider the Cary-Yale deck. If it had 16 trumps they might be the virtues, triumphs, and Imperatori, (there are no vice cards present):

Prudence
Fortitude
Temperance
Justice
Faith
Charity
Hope

(Bagatto)
Love
Chastity (Chariot)
Death
Fame (World)
Time (Hermit)
Eternity (Angel)

Emperor
Empress

I'm really curious to get some of your views on these suggestions. I've been racking my brain on it for months, hoping to present it in a more concise, authenticated form.. but it is only my conjectures at this point.

best,
robert
 

jmd

Welcome to Aeclectic, Robert.

This is the kind of brain-racking and putting together of various sources which I enjoy reflecting on, yet often find it difficult to comment.

One's first more 'academic' orientation is to find what weaknesses there are in such - yet I usually prefer to do just the opposite: What if this was indeed the way in which the Tarot's Major Arcana structure and sequence developed?

If I hold that for a while, what at first strikes me is a first question:

Why those specific three influences/impulses (Giotto, Petrach and the Imperatori)?

Also, as I reflect (without having looked at for quite a while) Giotto's depiction of the Vices (and their later given appelations), the question could also well be: but why have them changed so much ?

Still, your wonderful reflections - and wonderful and refreshing they indeed are - are worth more serious and somewhat more than instant response reflections... which I personally will do.

Thanks for the great post. I'll post more thoughts on it again, as I'm sure others will too.
 

le pendu

More thoughts

jmd, thank you for your kind response.

I do appreciate your willingness to give it some consideration.

I'm not sure if my suggestions are too blasé or outlandish! I do hope others will comment, positive of negative, I'm really curious to know what others think, and hopefully to learn from them.

I thought I'd give some more details about my take on how Giotto's vices relate to the Tarot.

best,
robert

-----

Foolishness - The Fool
Of all of the vices, this is probably the most apparent correlation. The staff, torn white clothing, and particularly the crown of feathers are obviously related. I wonder how often the image of the fool with the crown of feathers comes up in 14th/15th century artwork? Regardless, the name alone is correlation.

Inconstancy - The Wheel of Fortune
This image is certainly of Fortuna, shown in her "other" common iconography of riding on her wheel. This would have been an immediately identifiable image of her, nearly as common as shown turning her wheel. The sails in back of her indicate her vulnerability to the winds of change. I shoud also mention the famous quote from Boethius speaking as Fortuna, "Inconstancy is my very essence; it is the game I never cease to play as I turn my wheel in its ever changing circle, filled with joy as I bring the top to the bottom and the bottom to the top. Yes, rise up on my wheel if you like, but don't count it an injury when by the same token you begin to fall, as the rules of the game will require."

Ira - Missing
Missing

Injustice - The Tower
I think this one is important. I've always been troubled by *why* The Tower is in the deck. Babel is of course a common answer, but The Tower never seems to present an enormous tower reaching to the heavens. If you look closely at Giotto's work, you'll notice that the ruler is in a *crumbling* turret. There are large cracks on the right and left sides, at the top. The implication may be that unjust rulers will not retain power. I think this is a very good, albeit subtler, representation of the iconography of The Tower card.

Infidelity - The Popess?
This is the weakest correlation. It's not hard to see how the Pope could enter the tarot. Mantegna has him, and any collection of the "estates of man" would include him. The Popess however is much more difficult. I've never been convinced of the Pope Joan theory because of the lack of imagery of the child. The "Sister Manfreda" theory seems too obscure, isolated, and out of character for the rest of the deck. If you consider the virtues and vices, the virtue of Faith is balanced by the vice of infidelity (to the church), represented by idolatry. The Cary-Yale deck has no extant Pope or Popess. I don't believe they were included in the deck. My wild guess is that Faith eventually transformed into the Popess, then she was *properly* categorized as Infidelity and the Pope was added as the *true* representation of Faith.

Envy - The Devil
Ask about anyone to look at that image and tell you what it is and they will probably say the Devil. The figure is standing in flames, has horns, and a snaked tongue. I think it likely that this image could transform into The Devil card.

Desperation - The Hanged Man
This is my favorite. In the Cary-Yale deck the figure at the bottom of the Hope card is mentioned in the LWB. It notes the noose around his neck and says "At one time the words Juda Traditor were visible on his garment . The virtue of Hope has overcome the traitor Judas, who represents disloyalty and hypocrisy." Then, under the entry for the Hanged Man, it says, "Parravicino, in Burlington Magazine (1903) claimed to have seen the legend Juda Traditor on the purple garment of the figure at the bottom of the Hope Card in the Cary-Yale deck. However, the inscription on the Hope card is now illegible. From his observation, Parravicion concluded that the Hope card probably 'corresponds with the twelfth tarot of the man hanged.' " I believe he was right. There are no vice cards in the Cary-Yale deck, the vice of desperation was ON the Hope card. When seperated, he is the corresponding vice to the virtue of Hope. Also of course, the connection of the figure to the traitor is especially relevant. Note as well the crossbeam.
 

Huck

robertmealing said:
Hi Everyone,

I'm new here, but have been researching a lot of the posts and really enjoy reading your thoughts on Tarot history. I have couple of ideas I would like some feedback on.

Hi Robert,

I'm enjoyed to see your interest in the 5x14-theory

Last year I came across Giotto's Virtues and Vices, and feel convinced (as Decker is mentioned to be in the Encylopedia of Tarot) that they (or something based on them) played a major part in the development of the tarot.

I wonder if most of the cards in the our current deck can be attributed to 3 origins?

1. Giottos Virtues and Vices
2. Petrarch's Triumps
3. Imperatori

At trionfi.com most of the active writers agree, that all 3 mentioned sources caused a maior influence. Perhaps one should add chess as a a maior influence, but also others of minor importance. Each motif has a special story.

If there were an original 14 card deck, I'd suggest a deck made of just the virtues and vices. With the vice of Foolishness being the first trump taken by it's virtue Prudence; Inconstancy (wheel) the third trump taken by Fortitude... etc. This would be an extremely easy system to understand/remember with a built-in hierarchy.

Interesting. You suggest something similar as Boiardo actually did, however, he used 10 (11 pairs) with good/bad elements in his Tarocchi poem (without standard virtues and vices). Also we know from the Rosselli-document (1528), that a game around the virtues existed (one might assume, that vices were part of of this game, but it can't be proven. And Giotto himself (beside many others) gives evidence, that 7 virtues and 7 vices was an active scheme.

No doubt, it might have once existed.

But: We've no evidence for a use inside a card-game. From other concepts we've evidence. So there is the preference to look upon that, what's there instead of looking on that, what possibly might have been there. Even if we would know about one example, then still this example would be weak against all the other existing data.
What we really have as a rather sure concept, that once really existed and that was reappears in direct line in the later Marseille-Tarot, that are the 14 Bembo-trumps.
They do look, as if they were derived from a 5+5+4-structure, near to the standard playing-deck with 10 numbercards and 4 court-cards, which is a logical condition, if one assumes, that it is near to the origin or the original concept.

I'm particularly interested in the Vices. Just looking at the iconography, I can't help but notice the similarities to many of the Major Arcana. In fact, if indeed some of our cards come from here, it would explain WHY some of the more "mysterious" cards are included.

So here's my suggestion for a combination created from the Virtues/Vices/Triumphs:

Virtues
--------
Prudence - Missing
autorbis assumes, that it was part of the additional 6 cards, and developed to become world. So it would be "hidden", not missing. Missing is correct for the 14 Bembo-cards.
Fortitude
Temperance
Justice

Faith - Missing except for Cary-Yale (or Pope???)
Charity - Missing except for Cary-Yale
Hope - Missing except for Cary-Yale
autorbis suggests, that all virtues were missing in the 14 Bembo-cards beside Iustitia; he suggests, that Iustitia had a special function in this deck, she was presenting not her standard-role (the courting knight in the background may lead to a specific function in love-affaires).
Vices
--------
Foolishness - Fool
Inconstancy - Wheel of Fortune
Ira - Missing
Injustice - Tower
Infidelity - Missing (or Popess???)
Envy - Devil
Desperation - Hanged man

The Foool is "right", Infidelity is clearly (no doubt) the Hanging Man, which is the "traitor", and the Tower is Superbia - and the rest is .... just showing, that the 7 vices are not a maior concept in the development of Tarot. Fortuna was not a common part of the 7 vices, it is a leading figure inside the vices. Devil = envy I would say: no, Devil is just Devil and not part of the vices.

Triumphs
------------
Love - Lovers
Chastity - Triumphal Chariot
Death - Death
Fame - World
Time - Hermit
Eternity - Ange
l


Good. But we have to see, that the numerological order is broken and that only 5 are part of the 14 Bembo-cards. If we assume, that a similar-to -the -Bembo-deck gave the deciding impulse - then we cannot easily follow your weay. We may think of a later completion.
The second artist added sun-moon-star and the 3 missing virtues. But somebody changed the meaning, either the second painter or somebody who reinterpretated the concept by change from Prudentia to World. So Petrarca entered.

There is the fatal possibility for the original Tarot-conception, that it intentionally was constructed unclear to provoke discussions about the real concept. The riddle was possibly part of the intended game, perhaps already at the 5x14-level, perhaps appearing in the later 22-version. "Where is Prudentia" - perhaps the question once was intentionally laid in the game?
 

le pendu

Re: Re: Vices/Virtues/Triumphs

Hi Huck,

Thank you for your reply.

Trionfi.com:
I have visited the site many times. I have also just become a member of ltarot since reading your post. I'm wading through the archives. What an amazingly talented group of people.

Chess: Perhaps. I've read autorbis's suggested connections and layout. Interesting.

Boiardo:
Has your group finished the translation? I need to check the site. What does Boiardo call the trumps? Are they exact, similar, or different than what we know now?

the 14 Bembo-trumps:
While I do believe 14 trump decks existed, I don't at this point believe the Pierpoint deck is of that nature. I'd like to see more arguments for it before making a final decision. My main question would be why those 14 images?

Prudence:
Why the World? I've stated above that I think the World might be "Fame", although I think it one of the two weak suggested Petrarch connections (the other being Chariot = Chastity). If I were to guess a secret candidate for the Prudence, it would be the Bagatto. There are mild similarities to Giotto's image. The Cary sheet bagatto also looks related to Giotto's prudence. In my above mentioned scenario Prudence takes the Fool, so Prudence would be the card after the Fool. I'm not suggesting it.. just mentioning a thought. Again.. why the World, just because most of the other virtues are missing? I'm sorry, I'm not following something.

Justice: Justice in a different role of Love affairs???

Fool: Good!

Infidelity: The Hanged man? Why? Granted he has a rope, but compared to Desperation that doesn't seem as strong an arguement. Are you suggesting it because to the term Traitor. Infidelity=Traitor?

Tower is Superbia: Yes, I agree that the iconography looks similar to early images of Pride that I have seen. I just added one to the discussion on the "La Maison Diev" discussion. Do you have reasons or examples of why you believe that Superbia/Pride = Tower. This is the first time that I have seen it mentioned anywhere.

Fortuna: Yes, she was not a common representation in the vices, but Giottos are an unusual grouping. Do you agree that the image for Inconstancy is Fortuna?

Devil: Okay. Where do you think the devil entered? Karnoffle? Typical Christian iconography?

14 Bembo-cards - Petrarch: Again, I'm not convinced that the Pierpoint was a 5x14, so the fact that only 5 are included there means little to me. As for the numerology, I think most of the cards may be misordered. We certainly see enough switching around of cards historically to say there is no definative answer. But even the many that held a regular position seem to lack an internal "obvious" order. That is part of what I am trying to get at. I'm hoping to understand why these images.. why this order. Do you believe the cards are in the "original" order? How were the placement of the "additional" cards added without disturbing the order and therefore the numerology?

Sun, Moon Star: We agree.. an addition. But how does this now add in Petrarch?

Prudence Riddle: I hope not! There are plenty of riddles in the Tarot already!

Huck, I really appreciate that you took the time to consider these thoughts. I admire the work you and everyone does at Trionfi.com tremendously.

best,
robert
 

Huck

Re: Re: Re: Vices/Virtues/Triumphs

Originally posted by robertmealing
Hi Huck,

Thank you for your reply.

***** hi robert***

Trionfi.com:
I have visited the site many times. I have also just become a member of ltarot since reading your post. I'm wading through the archives. What an amazingly talented group of people.

**** thanks. just for your information: it's a little calm at the moment, as autorbis is privately occupated, but there is some discussion in our subgroups. if you're interested to enter, the theme is in the moment focused at visconti and 1424 and the time region 1440 - 1450.***

Chess: Perhaps. I've read autorbis's suggested connections and layout. Interesting.

**** The "8 Imperatori in Florence/Ferrrara" give the message, there is something with much less special cards than 14 or 22 in the year 1423.
The overall context "Imperatori decks disappear, when Trionfi cards gets farspread" around 1450 gives the idea: Imperatori decks are forerunners, development stages, of the Trionfi decks.

This conclusion is of course unsecure, but plausible.****

Boiardo:
Has your group finished the translation? I need to check the site. What does Boiardo call the trumps? Are they exact, similar, or different than what we know now?

****It is not finished, the project sleeps. Especially cause there are questions around earlier times. Perhaps with the work at earlier stages we learn indirectly about the Boiardo poem, the background etc.. So it's naturally to wait with it.
Some details (naming of the cards etc..) is given in the translation of the first chapters as far I remember. The text is transmitted by later redaction, some cards are known (see the site)

http://trionfi.com/01/h/ ****

the 14 Bembo-trumps:
While I do believe 14 trump decks existed, I don't at this point believe the Pierpoint deck is of that nature. I'd like to see more arguments for it before making a final decision. My main question would be why those 14 images?

**** autorbis is rather fix with it. It's about 99.9 % security to him. It cannot have totally 100 %, but it must have been a very unnatural phenomen, when it was different. Actually he made predictions, when the situation seemed rather undecided, and later notes like "70 cards in Trionfi decks in Ferrara 1457", the worth of the Marcello note 1449 and the 14 paintings in Ferrara at 1.1.1441 were detected just cause the assumption existed. His calculation is based on complicated mathematical reasons - which probably only himself understands ... :) everybody got doubts when listening to him .... so he stopped his try to communicate it. ***

Prudence:
Why the World? I've stated above that I think the World might be "Fame", although I think it one of the two weak suggested Petrarch connections (the other being Chariot = Chastity). If I were to guess a secret candidate for the Prudence, it would be the Bagatto. There are mild similarities to Giotto's image. The Cary sheet bagatto also looks related to Giotto's prudence. In my above mentioned scenario Prudence takes the Fool, so Prudence would be the card after the Fool. I'm not suggesting it.. just mentioning a thought. Again.. why the World, just because most of the other virtues are missing? I'm sorry, I'm not following something.

*** The second group of the Pierpont-Morgan-Bergamo suggests it:
3 bodies of heaven + 3 cardinal virtues .... it depends on the decision, if one accepts the earlier 5x14-state of the Bembo-cards. Why world?
That's their riddle, but one imaginable idea would be, that in the middle of 15th century it still was a quite uncommon idea, that earth is a globe. So "knowing this" was "Prudence", just understandable in this specific moment. Later the iconography was settled. World was world then. In the Bembo two putti have a mirror (or picture) with a city (mirror is a common Prudentia attribute).
Sforza had ideas to build an ideal city, "Sforzinda".
To present this as a form of personal Prudentia - a natural idea. Prudentia was very flexible handled - generally, more flexible than the other 3 virtues. ***

Justice: Justice in a different role of Love affairs???

*** This idea is known from Christine de Pizan and from the French court in the year 1402 especially in relation to Filippos sister Valentina and the Valentine day. Christine protested against the women-men relationship based on reflections of the Roman de la roses, which was very popular.
Christine knew a sort of goddess, which judged in the women-men relationships. That was early feminism. This sort of reflection might have reached the Milanese court, in which Bianca Maria (Valentina was her aunt) was an important woman, which somehow had more power than her husband. Only with her "rights" Francesco Sforza could claim to be the correct duke of Milano.

Fool: Good!

Infidelity: The Hanged man? Why? Granted he has a rope, but compared to Desperation that doesn't seem as strong an arguement. Are you suggesting it because to the term Traitor. Infidelity=Traitor?

**** This is specific Italian iconography. A person hanging head-down with two feet bound means fidelity, a person hanging down with one feet bound means infidelity (probably suggesting, that two feet bound doesn't try to escape martyrdom, but one feet bound does try - perhaps the picture results of the practical experience, that prisoners tried to escape the torture just by telling what they knew, "traitors"). There are various historical picture examples, I don't have one at hand in the moment. Of course there is the fact, that Muzio Attendola was presented as a puppet in 1411, and examples from Florence, where the real bodies of traitors were hanged this way in the 20ies and 1478. Also Benito Mussolini and his death conditions. This means traitor - no choice about that.****

Tower is Superbia: Yes, I agree that the iconography looks similar to early images of Pride that I have seen. I just added one to the discussion on the "La Maison Diev" discussion. Do you have reasons or examples of why you believe that Superbia/Pride = Tower. This is the first time that I have seen it mentioned anywhere.

*** It is mentioned as "standard" in German iconography books. ***

Fortuna: Yes, she was not a common representation in the vices, but Giottos are an unusual grouping. Do you agree that the image for Inconstancy is Fortuna?

**** Fortuna looks as "too important" to be part of the vices. Do you know of a representation of the 7 vices, in which Fortuna took part as a figure of the order? It's not impossible, but in the moment I don't remember anything. ***

Devil: Okay. Where do you think the devil entered? Karnoffle? Typical Christian iconography?

**** Autorbis suggests, that Devil entered as replacement card for the Visconti-snake rather late - by foes of the Visconti. Perhaps French origin.
But this is of course not the only possibility. ****

14 Bembo-cards - Petrarch: Again, I'm not convinced that the Pierpoint was a 5x14, so the fact that only 5 are included there means little to me. As for the numerology, I think most of the cards may be misordered. We certainly see enough switching around of cards historically to say there is no definative answer. But even the many that held a regular position seem to lack an internal "obvious" order. That is part of what I am trying to get at. I'm hoping to understand why these images.. why this order. Do you believe the cards are in the "original" order? How were the placement of the "additional" cards added without disturbing the order and therefore the numerology?

***** As far we get it: In the Marseille-order the original order of the 14 Bembo-cards (0-10, - , 12-13, -, 20; the reason for this order was the value 100) is displayed. It seems that the added cards were indended to fill the free places. We see a step from 14 to 20. Give Fool the 11 again and fill the 6 free places:

14: Temperance
15: cardinal virtue
16: cardinal virtue
17: star
18: moon
19: sun

Then the last change occured, devil and tower entered. 22 cards. The Fool jumped to 0 again, Strength got his place (11), World-Prudentia got the last place 21, and devil and tower were declared 15+16.****



Sun, Moon Star: We agree.. an addition. But how does this now add in Petrarch?

**** The Tarot became a game ... players do not care too much about intended orders of the game-developers. That's anarchy. We've very different orders, different motifs etc., and as shown, even differences and developments in the deck structure.
Petrarca was only of interest in the beginning. The Tarot got own feet to run with. ***

Prudence Riddle: I hope not! There are plenty of riddles in the Tarot already!

**** :) The start producers were intellectuals, at least in the second stage. The first stage might have been: a game for children and women.
The Minchiate contains a sophisticated riddle around the astrological signs. The order is disturbed - perhaps cause to make fun of riddle-solvers. A similar contemporary intellectual fun might have accompanied the Prudentia-World. Hide it. Confuse the riddle-solver :)
The Trionfi (as festivities) of late 15th and 16th century were full of intellectual fun. Know the symbols, explore the figures, find their meaning etc.. That was common. That was discussion between the spectators. That was a specific culture and they went far with it.
The cards only accompanied these deeper processes.


Huck, I really appreciate that you took the time to consider these thoughts. I admire the work you and everyone does at Trionfi.com tremendously.

**** Thanks for your interest
 

Ross G Caldwell

Riddle of missing prudence is an interesting idea. I'm really warming up to it.

Perhaps the player is Prudence, holding up the cards in front of oneself like a mirror (specchio/speculum); the earliest cards are reflective after all. In scrutinizing their hands, the players become embodiments of Prudence - what do they see in the mirror of fortune (specchio della fortuna)?

The idea of the "mirror of the world" (speculum mundi) fits with the cards better than the more common idea of an "image of the world" (imago mundi) precisely because of the missing virtue of Prudence.

Prudence is present in the more deliberately encyclopedic Mantegna and Minchiate decks - they perhaps would better be described as "imagines mundi". But seen in this light, trionfi are more playful and philosophic - not a mere passive map of the world, but a game that invites participation, contemplation of the next prudent move, since you are looking at yourself in the hand that's dealt to you.

Ross
 

full deck

An excellent thread

You know, this is a really nice thread started by Robert and, as I'd mentioned before to Robert, I would post back to this thread regarding his ideas on the vices/virtues/and triumphs, especially since my web researching on the minchiate is leading me to explore the historical and artistic origins of the minchiate symbols, which are so interwoven with the origins of Tarot symbolism.

I found one really interesting reference to
"Temperance and the Cannon of Virtues"

This is more an exploration of where and how the virtue "Temperance" evolved through time.
In late antiquity and the Middle Ages the most interesting additions to the classical doctrine of temperance were those that related it to the monastic life (where, because of its identification with chastity, one of the three great monastic vows, it enjoyed great prestige) and those that integrated it into the complex systems of virtues and vices that proliferated from the time of Evagrius Ponticus in the East and John Cassian in the West. The writings of Cicero, especially his rhetorical works and the commentaries they inspired, the encyclopedic works of Martianus Capella and Isidore of Seville, the Moralia of Gregory the Great, Macrobius' commentary on Cicero's Somnium Scipionis, and Martin of Braga's Formula vitae honestae, derived from Seneca's lost De officiis, were the chief transmitters of classical doctrine about the virtues. In the Carolingian Age, Alcuin's On Rhetoric and the Virtues and similar works of the “advice to princes” type revived the political significance of the cardinal virtues. At this point they sprang to life in art.
 

Rusty Neon

How do the existence of the Mantegna and Minchiate decks fit within the context of the various 'origin' theories cited in the posts above? Those decks have 'virtues' not found in the major arcana of tarot decks.