Where did Waite get these meanings?

La Force said:

I have lost count how many times I've read Waite's book. The Major Arcana weren't the problem. The Minor Arcana and the Courts were the problem. The courts dont even match up to book T, the knight and Kings are swapped. That to me is a problem alone.

Don't be giving me any more ideas, I have already written a book. I might end up writting another one but without the GD system. See your giving me ideas

I have been thinking, hmm maybe it time I finish my tarot deck. I'll be making some changes thats for sure, see if I can fix Waites errors. By following the GD system, hmmm will need to take Raven up on studing the GD. Again I'm thinking out loud

Click to expand...

I don't know about the 'crow' down under (Ravenest ), but I think the Waite may be a lost cause. I have thought about writing a book about it, but it would be a lost cause resulting in heartbreak.

Actually, the kings and and knights were not swapped from the GD. You go by the image, not the title: the Knights are on horseback, the Kings are in chariots or on thrones. This comes as a shock to most people, but that's the way it is. The Knights are the consorts of the Queens, the Kings are lower down on the pecking order, and the Pages are actually the Princesses.

I know this is confusing, forgive me.

LRichard said:

I don't know about the 'crow' down under (Ravenest ), but I think the Waite may be a lost cause. I have thought about writing a book about it, but it would be a lost cause resulting in heartbreak.

Actually, the kings and and knights were not swapped from the GD. You go by the image, not the title: the Knights are on horseback, the Kings are in chariots or on thrones. This comes as a shock to most people, but that's the way it is. The Knights are the consorts of the Queens, the Kings are lower down on the pecking order, and the Pages are actually the Princesses.

I know this is confusing, forgive me.

Click to expand...

Good point, it would take a year or two to finish writting another book.

Oops I stand corrected I ment the order as being swapped. I get the images be he also

I wasnt confused with your comment, It was me that posted wrong, so I was incorrect. I should've stated the order was swapped, instead of just say that the king and knights were swapped, that does mislead. Waite IMO, should not have titled the card the way he did, the titles are misleading themselves and does cause confusion, a king is in a higher status than a knight. Therefore that would be one of the fixes I would do in my deck.

I don't think Waite is a lost cause, but that any discussion of him always concludes in the same vein. The answers are simply not in the PKT and if they are, they are encoded. People like Crowley seemed to be more interested in the process; the Book of Thoth can be thought of as the steps in an equation. The PKT on the other hand, is all end result. For those who know what to look for, the PKT itself can be a fascinating book full of insight, but all in all, judging Waite by it is unfair. It simply is not his final and authoritative word on Tarot; it is like if Einstein wrote a children's book about science and his knowlege being judged by that.

Now, although I'm a fan, this isn't to say I have no criticism. The swap of the male Courts are the most damning evidence I know of that shows deliberate falsification. It is the smoking gun, and it is in full view.

Moderator Note

ravenest said:

I think the rest of us are fine with the way you choose YOUR thread to run LaForce. Please continue. If its helping you, just continue and ask what you will.

Click to expand...

Point of clarification. Threads do not belong to the person who started them, they belong to Aeclectic. As such, the thread starter does not have any control over what content is allowed in the thread. The Moderator(s) of the forum make that decision.

If anyone has any questions about this matter, please PM me directly instead of derailing this interesting thread.

rwcarter, Moderator of Rider-Waite-Smith

changed this post to a PM.

closrapexa said:

I don't think Waite is a lost cause, but that any discussion of him always concludes in the same vein. The answers are simply not in the PKT and if they are, they are encoded. People like Crowley seemed to be more interested in the process; the Book of Thoth can be thought of as the steps in an equation. The PKT on the other hand, is all end result. For those who know what to look for, the PKT itself can be a fascinating book full of insight, but all in all, judging Waite by it is unfair. It simply is not his final and authoritative word on Tarot; it is like if Einstein wrote a children's book about science and his knowlege being judged by that.

Now, although I'm a fan, this isn't to say I have no criticism. The swap of the male Courts are the most damning evidence I know of that shows deliberate falsification. It is the smoking gun, and it is in full view.

Click to expand...

I suppose when he made the deck the titles of the courts (or even part titles) from Book T were still under oath. So he used the titles from the TdM ... is that right, are they the titles from TdM ?

ravenest said:

I suppose when he made the deck the titles of the courts (or even part titles) from Book T were still under oath. So he used the titles from the TdM ... is that right, are they the titles from TdM ?

Click to expand...

I am guessing he did.

Raven do you have this book "Mystical Origins of the Tarot, by Paul Huson". Check out pages 204 - 206

Did you know that the orginal meanings of the decans of the 3 of Swords and the 4 of Swords were misinterpreted by the GD.
According to the orginal Doctrine " Picatrix", the 3 of Swords is, to quietness, ease, plenty, good life, and dance. The 4 of Swords is ill deeds yet of singing and mirth and gluttony, sodomy and following of evil pleasures.

This is just one of many issues I am having with Waite's deck, phathom that. Here we have a book that published pointing all the stuff, and yet people keep repeating the errors etc. I can almost garuentee Waite is either rolling over in his grave laughing at us deck creators, or shaking his head, thinking to himself how his vagueness did work and we all to stupid to figure it out, and fell for his changes.

This is where I am at odds with Waites deck, and darn it makes me mad, why cause some really good artist have created lovely decks, but the imagery on some of the cards, title/order, etc are wrong.

I highly recommend new decks to be created properly, you now have a book by paul huson to help you.

If you dont have the book get it.

ETA: I am going to follow only the meanings that follow the "Picatrix". and I going to turn my Marseille by Jane Lyle into new flash cards with the Picatrix meanings on the pips or use a regular deck of playing cards. No more confusion

In PKT, Waite used the accepted esoteric ordering of the Trumps (Levi's ordering) which put the Fool between Judgement and World, although he knew this was incorrect and stated as much in various places in the book. Likewise he used the customary historical ordering of the Courts: King, Queen, Knight, Page. For some reason he seemed to think that it was inappropriate to say much about the esoteric aspect of the Minors. He did say somewhere in PKT that a Knight should be chosen as the significator for an older male.

Additional conjecture. Being a quasi Christian, he probably thought of Tipharet as the Christ Sephirah. In the Christian mythos Christ is both a King and a Son as well as a Solar deity. So it would seem natural for the Kings to be placed at Sephirah 6. This leaves no other reasonable place for the Knights except at Chokmah. He couldn't talk about this because apparently he considered Kabbalah off limits for PKT.

Normally the Marseille courts are ordered as in PKT. When I received my ISIS Marseille, I went through the cards to make sure everything was okay. When I got to the Minors, in the first suit I came to, the cards were ordered Ace, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Knave, King, Queen, Knight. Thinking this might have been a mistake, I checked the next suit, and it was ordered the same. Likewise with the other two suits. Apparently some esoteric stuff has filtered down into Marseille land.

LRichard said:

Normally the Marseille courts are ordered as in PKT. When I received my ISIS Marseille, I went through the cards to make sure everything was okay. When I got to the Minors, in the first suit I came to, the cards were ordered Ace, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, Knave, King, Queen, Knight. Thinking this might have been a mistake, I checked the next suit, and it was ordered the same. Likewise with the other two suits. Apparently some esoteric stuff has filtered down into Marseille land.

Click to expand...

Looks like I'm going to buy me a new deck as soon as I have the money or maybe trade off some of my decks to get the ISIS, thanks LRichad

ravenest said:

I suppose when he made the deck the titles of the courts (or even part titles) from Book T were still under oath. So he used the titles from the TdM ... is that right, are they the titles from TdM ?

Click to expand...

Yes.

King = Roy (sits on a throne)
Queen = Reyne
Knight = Cavalier (rides a horse)
Page = Valet