Where did Waite get these meanings?

ravenest

U

I am guessing he did.

Raven do you have this book "Mystical Origins of the Tarot, by Paul Huson". Check out pages 204 - 206

No ... the last Huson book I read was soooooo long ago ... when did this one come out, recently?

" occult nature of the tarot from its origins in ancient Persia " :bugeyed: that got me!


Did you know that the orginal meanings of the decans of the 3 of Swords and the 4 of Swords were misinterpreted by the GD.
According to the orginal Doctrine " Picatrix", the 3 of Swords is, to quietness, ease, plenty, good life, and dance. The 4 of Swords is ill deeds yet of singing and mirth and gluttony, sodomy and following of evil pleasures.

I see it as a misinterpretation if the decans WERE the sole model ... but I dont think they were. As I said .... somewhere ... sometimes they fit, sometimes they dont. LIke the 22 trumps and 22 letters ... that sounds good, lets match them up ... some seem to fit some dont. 40 minors, 36 decans ... do a flourish with the aces (as they dont really count, not being the same) and presto. If I was fitting cards (with an already established meaning) into decans ... I would have to decide which system had the most influence, some might match and some might not, do I change the meaning of a card to match?

Like I said before, I looked at some extensively - some match some dont.

In any case , how do we know the Picatrix (or Ibn Ezra or Agrippa) got the decans 'right' (in some cases they are at odds with each other).

What is a decan anyway? Is it defined by an obscure medieval text or by Chaldean astrology or ancient Egyptian time keeping. My take is that it is defined by the mean influence of the significant stars that are located IN that decan ... I have also worked with that meaning, but of course there is some variation in what influence those stars have ... and even my idea about that is often poo-pooed (yet ; anyone got a better one ? ). We could try to nut it all out in another thread (sounds like fun) ... but we may even be touching on knowledge here beyond what Waite or the G.D. had access to back then.

(Oh ... I meant to say before that I meant 'old style' traditional astrology is better understood now than when the GD was using it. You will get more understanding about that and links to good works on it, in the astro forum here than from a GD book )
This is just one of many issues I am having with Waite's deck, phathom that. Here we have a book that published pointing all the stuff, and yet people keep repeating the errors etc. I can almost garuentee Waite is either rolling over in his grave laughing at us deck creators, or shaking his head, thinking to himself how his vagueness did work and we all to stupid to figure it out, and fell for his changes.

:laugh: ... your making Waite sound like Crowley ... (now Crowley is rolling over in his grave :laugh: )
This is where I am at odds with Waites deck, and darn it makes me mad, why cause some really good artist have created lovely decks, but the imagery on some of the cards, title/order, etc are wrong. :(

Settle down now ... :laugh: ... MUCH in the magical tradition is repeated with mistakes ... there are some DOOZIES in the GD books ... people keep repeating them ... you know why ? Because they dont show up until you DO THE WORK ... the thing is, with books , they seem to give the author some type of instant validity and they might not have done ANY practical work or their own research.
I highly recommend new decks to be created properly, you now have a book by paul huson to help you.

If you dont have the book get it.

Okay , now I am curious to read what is on those pages ... but it will have to go on end of the queue .

ETA: I am going to follow only the meanings that follow the "Picatrix". and I going to turn my Marseille by Jane Lyle into new flash cards with the Picatrix meanings on the pips or use a regular deck of playing cards. No more confusion :)

Yep, you just have to decide what Picatrix meaning 'Trumps' previous meanings that you are attached to .

Sure, why not. Picatrix tarot. ( You could publish it and have all these Freemasonic / Kabbalistic tarot readers scratching their heads and going "Where did she get THAT from?" )
 

ravenest

What happened to 'equality of the sexes' ?

Yes.

King = Roy (sits on a throne)
Queen = Reyne
Knight = Cavalier (rides a horse)
Page = Valet

3 men and one woman ... IHVH ???

Cavaliers: http://assets.catawiki.nl/assets/2013/8/24/a/5/1/a5179954-0ccd-11e3-89c3-4e86a38631a0.jpg

How is the Knight going to run off with the Princess then .

http://www.lepalaisdutarot.com/Tarot/Persian_Tarot_Madame_Indira.jpg

(bottom middle )

That means there will be no pissed off 'King' ;

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/dnc2HXZyquQ/hqdefault.jpg

(Tarot originated in ancient Persia ? )
 

Richard

3 men and one woman ... IHVH ???.......
That's an illusion. The Pages/Valets are Princesses in drag. Persian princesses used to do that all the time.
 

ravenest

Ah ... good .... thats better than what I was thinking.
 

La Force

No ... the last Huson book I read was soooooo long ago ... when did this one come out, recently?

" occult nature of the tarot from its origins in ancient Persia " :bugeyed: that got me!

The book came out years ago, its okay it flew under your radar

I see it as a misinterpretation if the decans WERE the sole model ... but I dont think they were. As I said .... somewhere ... sometimes they fit, sometimes they dont. LIke the 22 trumps and 22 letters ... that sounds good, lets match them up ... some seem to fit some dont. 40 minors, 36 decans ... do a flourish with the aces (as they dont really count, not being the same) and presto. If I was fitting cards (with an already established meaning) into decans ... I would have to decide which system had the most influence, some might match and some might not, do I change the meaning of a card to match?

Like I said before, I looked at some extensively - some match some dont.

In any case , how do we know the Picatrix (or Ibn Ezra or Agrippa) got the decans 'right' (in some cases they are at odds with each other).

What is a decan anyway? Is it defined by an obscure medieval text or by Chaldean astrology or ancient Egyptian time keeping. My take is that it is defined by the mean influence of the significant stars that are located IN that decan ... I have also worked with that meaning, but of course there is some variation in what influence those stars have ... and even my idea about that is often poo-pooed (yet ; anyone got a better one ? ). We could try to nut it all out in another thread (sounds like fun) ... but we may even be touching on knowledge here beyond what Waite or the G.D. had access to back then.

(Oh ... I meant to say before that I meant 'old style' traditional astrology is better understood now than when the GD was using it. You will get more understanding about that and links to good works on it, in the astro forum here than from a GD book )

Wow, lots to reply back too, I get what your saying, I understand what you mean.

What I can say is that I beg to differ, the Ancients were far more advanced in astrology, they understood it like the back of their hands and more, then we are, and do, we may have some technological advancement as far as telescopes (hubble). But they knew stuff, planets way before we did, like pluto, that has now been demoted. So I would feel more confident using older astrology. The summerians, egyptian, mayan. You know how they did it without a telescope?

:laugh: ... your making Waite sound like Crowley ... (now Crowley is rolling over in his grave :laugh: )

ROFLMAO

Yep, you just have to decide what Picatrix meaning 'Trumps' previous meanings that you are attached to .

Sure, why not. Picatrix tarot. ( You could publish it and have all these Freemasonic / Kabbalistic tarot readers scratching their heads and going "Where did she get THAT from?" )

I have defaced a bicycle playing card deck, and named it with a black jiffy marker "Picatrix Tarot". I sellected the best Trumped meanings. But its missing the knights, lol The kings are in trouble, lol
 

ravenest

:) that post made me chuckle.

With the astrology , I agree with you, thats why I source this 'old astrology stuff', what I mean is that 'that stuff' is better and the way we understand it now is better than the Golden Dawn did.

So one is better off IMO going to the source material (not modern astrology) ... or new writings and systems developed from the source material than one is getting from the GD documents.

I mean what they taught was very limited ... maybe they expected their initiates to do the research themselves ? ... or maybe not , from what I have read about it .

Only a few years back I was poo pooed for suggesting individual stars had astrological significance - by astrologers, mind you - yet, now look at sites like this that have become well respected nowadays :

http://www.constellationsofwords.com/stars/Stars_alphabet.htm
 

La Force

:) that post made me chuckle.

With the astrology , I agree with you, thats why I source this 'old astrology stuff', what I mean is that 'that stuff' is better and the way we understand it now is better than the Golden Dawn did.

So one is better off IMO going to the source material (not modern astrology) ... or new writings and systems developed from the source material than one is getting from the GD documents.

I mean what they taught was very limited ... maybe they expected their initiates to do the research themselves ? ... or maybe not , from what I have read about it .

Only a few years back I was poo pooed for suggesting individual stars had astrological significance - by astrologers, mind you - yet, now look at sites like this that have become well respected nowadays :

http://www.constellationsofwords.com/stars/Stars_alphabet.htm

Thanks for the link, I am having a hay day :)

ETA: Shame on those who poo pooed on you :( They were most likely jealous, or intimidated, that you dared to challenge new belifs / system, so they just stomped / snuffed out your theory before it turned into a blazing fire. How much you wanna bet, that one of those people, took your theory, and ran off with it, so they would get the credit and gain. I call that sabotage. I have had that experiencce more than once.

could you please dig up some of your stuff, I would like to read :)
 

ravenest

Its not my 'theory' , it has has been well out there for ... ever (I live in a land with, at least, a 40,000 year old indigenous culture ... they used stars). I read up on ancient civilisations ... they used stars - as did many traditions in all places over all times .I studied anthropology, every culture I studied gave significantce to the stars and their effect on us ... except one : western tropical astrology ... it doesnt use stars at all ... (well, wandering stars, which are planets, and one star - the Sun).

For a while, western tropical astrologers were poo -pooing the use of stars and saying it wasnt astrology at all , they seem to accept it more now <shrug>.

And the concept most have when using astrology with the cards is a western tropical astrological one ... even with Waite and Thoth decks ... which are clearly based on GD astrology - which has its own system < double shrug> .

anyway better PM me if you want to get into this more.
 

Amber Lamps

I have lost count how many times I've read Waite's book. The Major Arcana weren't the problem. The Minor Arcana and the Courts were the problem. The courts dont even match up to book T, the knight and Kings are swapped. That to me is a problem.

Waite tipped his King/Knight, Knight/King hand when he wrote:

"A Knight should be chosen as the Significator if the subject of inquiry is a man of forty years old and upward; a King should be chosen for any male who is under that age..."

He did, though, keep the Astrology under his turban :D