Interesting comment by Ronald Decker

I just got a copy of Decker's Art and Arcana: Commentary on The Medieval Scapini Tarot. It's filled with interesting tidbits, with a special emphasis on Levi.

On page 101-102, while discussing the TdM, he says:
"The Tarot de Marseille certainly existed by the 1500s. The Cary Collection (Yale) contains an important block-printed sheet of cards (still joined together in a stage prior to stenciling, separating, and gluing on heavier stock). The print consists of Tarot trumps that resemble the Tarot de Marseille. The print is Milanese and dates c.1500. The present author believes that the Tarot de Marseille preserves the imagery of the very first Tarot, although we may plausibly suppose that the French titles on the figure also would have been a French detail, for the earlier Tarots lack numerals. In my opinion, the French numeration of the trumps preserves their original order."

robert

TdM's origin

Hi,

Yes, the TdM is very probably linked to the Cary sheet as mentionned often in precedent posts.
this is also the position of Thierry depaulis and Mickael Dummett.

The only"reserve" I'd make is that the Milanese origin of the Cary Sheet isn't a certitude but an inference.
Keeping close to facts, the origin of the Cary sheet is still unknown, so the origin of the TdM remains unknown..

Alain

Hi Alain,

Yes, I agree with you about the Cary Sheet. What I found interesting about the comment however was the two statements concerning the "very first Tarot".

1. "the Tarot de Marseille preserves the imagery of the very first Tarot"
2. "the French numeration of the trumps preserves their original order"

This implies that the imagery in the Visconti decks is not as faithful to the "first tarot" as the imagery in the TdM. I've heard several members (hi JMD) state this position before, but haven't heard a "Tarot Historian" state it. So the Viscontis changed the Hermit into Time? The Wheel only had three characters, and they were animals? The Lovers wasn't Love and should have the 3rd person?

Perhaps this is a more common position than I realized.

Or should I assume the "very first Tarot" was developed *after* the Visconti decks, and that the Viscontis are not really Tarot cards? (Another position that I have heard members state before).

robert

le pendu said:

Or should I assume the "very first Tarot" was developed *after* the Visconti decks...

Click to expand...

A great deal of peace of mind may be derived from overlooking the
historical records, and simply figuring out the meaning of the cards.
Much as the winds of the desert formed the first natural pyramids,
the Tarot has been around in one shape or form since the alphabet.

I also would question a theory that thinks the TdM order and imaginary was the „original“ Tarot. If the Cary-sheet is a precursor of the TdM, we must also remember that we do not find either its order or its imaginary before this date; probably not even the number of trumps (Bembo-14).

Of the three orders A, B, C, Dummett lined out, I personally would find the order C, the TdM-order, the most sophisticated, but also the latest. While the other orders still try find solutions to open problems (how to order the three virtues without loosing Death as number 13, e.g.), the TdM-order has find a wonderful solution. This is the grace of a later phase, I think.

Any origination-theory should take into account that origin and full gestalt mostly do not belong together, but that a phenomenon (as the Tarot) needs phases of development into its inner possibilities and their harmonious manifestation.

Yatima

Let us not forget that on page 102, at the beginning of the last line, first paragraph (quoted above), Ronald Decker states, “In my opinion…”

The second paragraph of the same page ends with the words, “More research is needed.”

Although it is an interesting statement, let us not rush to judgment and misconstrue his comments as fact.

I tried to keep the quote short, I should have included his statement that it was his opinion.

I never intended to take what he said as fact, or to suggest that any one else should. It was my surprise that he would state it that moved me to put up the quote.

While I am not personally convinced of any origin theory at this time, I do tend to look to Italy, not France, as the origin of tarot. I would suspect that either the Visconti or the Cary sheet is closer to the 'origin' than the TdM, but am eager to be convinced otherwise.

robert

le pendu said:

Yes, I agree with you about the Cary Sheet. What I found interesting about the comment however was the two statements concerning the "very first Tarot".

1. "the Tarot de Marseille preserves the imagery of the very first Tarot"
2. "the French numeration of the trumps preserves their original order"

This implies that the imagery in the Visconti decks is not as faithful to the "first tarot" as the imagery in the TdM. I've heard several members (hi JMD) state this position before, but haven't heard a "Tarot Historian" state it. So the Viscontis changed the Hermit into Time? The Wheel only had three characters, and they were animals? The Lovers wasn't Love and should have the 3rd person?

Perhaps this is a more common position than I realized.

Or should I assume the "very first Tarot" was developed *after* the Visconti decks, and that the Viscontis are not really Tarot cards? (Another position that I have heard members state before).

robert

Click to expand...

I think I agree with your second formulation. For me, the tarot - first called "taraux" and "tarocchi" in 1505 - refers to a printed, mass-produced product. This is a deck like the TdM. I think it was invented around 1500.

The painted decks are the clear origin of this deck. For me, it seems clear that the triumphs started in the courtly, genteel world between Milan and Ferrara - that is, along the Po in northern Italy - and then were imitated in cheaper form for mass-consumption sometime later.

Strictly speaking then, I wouldn't call any of the 15th century cards "tarots" - I would call them triumphs. This word refers to various kinds of pictures, and using it allows you to speak about cards as various as Michelino's deck, the Visconti and d'Este cards, Boiardo and the Sola Busca. You realize that Tarot is a brand of Triumphs, and that triumphs means a lot more styles than one. Dummett tried to prove in 1980 that triumphs meant tarot, but more light has been shed on that word since, and the earliest uses of trionfi shows that we can't be sure that all triumphs were tarots.

As for the Cary Sheet preserving the earliest tarot designs - well, I guess if you think tarot was invented, in the strict sense, around 1500, then yes it does.

Yatima said:

Of the three orders A, B, C, Dummett lined out, I personally would find the order C, the TdM-order, the most sophisticated, but also the latest. While the other orders still try find solutions to open problems (how to order the three virtues without loosing Death as number 13, e.g.), the TdM-order has find a wonderful solution. This is the grace of a later phase, I think.

Any origination-theory should take into account that origin and full gestalt mostly do not belong together, but that a phenomenon (as the Tarot) needs phases of development into its inner possibilities and their harmonious manifestation.

Yatima

Click to expand...

This is a superb way of putting it. The tarot took time to find its "classic" forms. Everything does - "Rome wasn't built in a day" etc.

A perfect and succinct example is the way the Papessa moves - she shows how people had to play with the order, based on the ambiguity of the meaning of such a figure. It is almost as if Tarot is mist condensing on the window of culture in the 15th century, and some of that condensation ended up becoming a stream.

This is to say nothing of the problem of the placement of the virtues.

le pendu said:

I tried to keep the quote short, I should have
included his statement that it was his opinion.

Click to expand...

You did, and I think your presentation is very interesting.
The best part is, given the original unity of the 22 Majors,
theorizing becomes a game, beyond the realm of the Tarot.

Thanks!