Aeclectic Tarot
Tarot Cards & Reviews Live Tarot Readings Tarot Card Meanings Forum Archive

Ace of cups. Rider/Waite

  > Aeclectic Tarot Forum > Tarot Special Interest > Rider-Waite-Smith


 
The crowned one's Avatar
The crowned one  The crowned one is offline
Moderation
 
Join Date: 12 Mar 2007
Location: Canada.
Posts: 18,448
The crowned one 
Moderation

The crowned one's Avatar
Ace of cups. Rider/Waite


I have gone through what I can find on the Ace of cups here at Aeclectic and did not find the answer to my question, so I will post it now.

Why does A E Waite in "The Pictorial Key to the Tarot" describe the card as "...the cup, from which four streams are pouring..." when it is obviously five?

I thought this might be one of his many simple "misguides" to lead the uninitiated astray perhaps?

Symbolically here is how I see this card : The Cup itself I link to the grail. The dove: spiritual values and peace. The wafer in its beak communion, the Greek or solar cross in the wafer.. the sign of the sun, and therefore life(mankind). The FIVE streams for me are the five senses. The Lily's in the lake are a sign of purity of the heart and rebirth, as they are red rather then white I tend to think the lust stage of love, how it generally begins, over the later mellow but more complete loves that have had time to mature.

In divination, without the influence of other cards My thoughts are: new beginnings, great love/lust, joy, and the cup running over. There are cards that can quickly draw the divining meaning of this card towards fertility, marriage and pregnancy or perhaps creation is a better word just to name a few quick thoughts.

What do others make of the discrepancy beween Waite's words and Rider's art for the Ace of cups?
Top   #1
Rosanne's Avatar
Rosanne  Rosanne is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 08 Dec 2004
Location: North Auckland,New Zealand
Posts: 5,917
Rosanne 
Citizen

Rosanne's Avatar

Hi! This is one of the cards, that to me, discredit Waite's complete involvement in PCS painting of the cards. Robert Place says that the five streams represent the wounds of Christ- which makes sense to me given PCS's Catholicism. Place also states that Waite apparently wanted and said there were four to connect the streams to the four rivers of Eden- the fountain in the Garden, that flowed in the four cardinal directions. So he either did not see the card- or that he was expecting Pamela to follow his writings- which to a large degree she appears not to have. In the cartomancy book that I learned Tarot from, this Ace is called the 'house of the enquirer'- which was a common title.
In Huson : Waite says this card is the House of the true heart, joy, content, abode, and nourishment- also the Holy Table if I remember correctly.
~Rosanne
Top   #2
Rosanne's Avatar
Rosanne  Rosanne is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 08 Dec 2004
Location: North Auckland,New Zealand
Posts: 5,917
Rosanne 
Citizen

Rosanne's Avatar

I was thinking about the 'misguides' The Crowned One, and I have to say I do not think Waite would have used something as obvious as a miscount to misguide the initiate. I like your idea of the five senses- Pamela Colman Smith was considered a trance painter and she also painted to music I believe. All very sensory. I also agree that Crowley and Waite both used the Grail as the Chalice.
I also think there is a sense of it being Celtic cauldron of Dagda- the cup that can never empty. Waite use to apparently celebrate Mass and Communion and there is a very strong element of that with the Communion wafer and the dove. When The Wafer or host with the Chalice is held up before the congregation the Priest says 'Take this, all of you and Drink from it it is the body and blood of Saviour......(Accipipe et bibite ex eo omnes etc etc ) and at the end of Mass would say "Ite Missa est" or "the Mass is ended go in Peace" I think the upside down M is not the Virgin Mary as is often said but the M for Mass or Missa That when you metaphorically drink from the Cup the M is the right way up. You are participating in the life and Death of Christ or perhaps more accurately participating in your own salvation. ~Rosanne
Top   #3
BodhiSeed's Avatar
BodhiSeed  BodhiSeed is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 14 Oct 2004
Location: Under a Sycamore Tree
Posts: 8,105
BodhiSeed 
Citizen

BodhiSeed's Avatar

In my studies, I think I have also read that the five streams represent the five senses - the senses, that when rightly used, can bring us joy and happiness. (Guess poor Waite just didn't know how strong-willed we women can be when we know we're right about something ).
That's interesting info about the "M" representing mass. Thanks for that insight Rosanne. I've also heard that it might represent "material vessel", whether that vessel is Christ, Mary, or even us, as we are both physical and spiritual.

Bodhran
Top   #4
Rosanne's Avatar
Rosanne  Rosanne is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 08 Dec 2004
Location: North Auckland,New Zealand
Posts: 5,917
Rosanne 
Citizen

Rosanne's Avatar

Hehe Bodran- you are right about strong women! I always laugh when I think of this M and Waite. Missa or Mass comes from the latin word for dismissal. "Go - it is ended" I think how much I dismiss Waite and how he may have inadvertently wrote "I am dismissed" on the Ace. ~Rosanne
Top   #5
frelkins's Avatar
frelkins  frelkins is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 19 Mar 2007
Location: USA & Denmark; notfortunesfool.com
Posts: 1,987
frelkins 
Citizen

frelkins's Avatar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosanne
I think how much I dismiss Waite
AS everyone knows I am a rather new collector, but I must say the more I learn about Waite, Roseanne, the more I share your attitude. PCS seems so much more interesting to me than Waite. Or Rider. And it's obvious she made the cards *her* way. . .
Top   #6
Abrac  Abrac is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 13 Aug 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 4,466
Abrac 
Citizen

Sometimes you can look without seeing. If Waite was writing while in a hurry or distracted, he may have seen only that which he expected to see and not what was actually there. I can see how he may have confused the two streams on the left for one if he wasn't paying attention.

In The Pictorial Key says, "It is an intimation of that which may lie behind the Lesser Arcana." Believing there were only four streams, he may have drawn a correspondence between them and the four suits of the minors.
Top   #7
Rosanne's Avatar
Rosanne  Rosanne is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 08 Dec 2004
Location: North Auckland,New Zealand
Posts: 5,917
Rosanne 
Citizen

Rosanne's Avatar

I would love to know the order that Pamela painted these cards. I wonder if she painted some little comments in them- that indicated a sense of humour. It might just be my fanciful take, and we do not really know. On the surface the W might just be for Waite (as was common on the Two Coins in older decks that would have given inspiration for the deck). From a calligraphy point of view it certainly seems to be an upside down M. I find it hard to believe that Waite missed the fifth stream, by inattention especially as it had a W/M painted on it. I think maybe he did not see the Minors until after they were printed. Yes, it could well indicate the four suits by Waite's words- if there were four, but there are five.
I find this deck sometimes quite funny. Take the Ten Coins- On the back of the elder outside the gate is what appears to be a Lyre. In England the constellation of Lyra was called the Harp of King Arthur (Waite?) When King Arthur aged, Camelot went into decline- he was figuratively 'out in the cold' Was this Pamela's quirky laugh at Him or the decline of the Golden Dawn? Now if Waite had seen this before the printers, I think he would have objected- or he was obtuse (which I do not think he was) ~Rosanne
Top   #8
Abrac  Abrac is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 13 Aug 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 4,466
Abrac 
Citizen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosanne
I think maybe he did not see the Minors until after they were printed.
True, that's a good point. I hadn't thought of that.
Top   #9
tarotlyn's Avatar
tarotlyn  tarotlyn is offline
Citizen
 
Join Date: 17 May 2007
Location: Spirit World in California, USA!
Posts: 6,702
tarotlyn 
Citizen

tarotlyn's Avatar
"...the cup, from which four streams are pouring..." when it is obviously five?


Quote:
Originally Posted by The crowned one
I have gone through what I can find on the Ace
of cups here at Aeclectic and did not find the answer to my question, so I
will post it now.

Why does A E Waite in "The Pictorial Key to the Tarot" describe the card
as "...the cup, from which four streams are pouring..." when it is obviously
five?
...................
What do others make of the discrepancy beween Waite's words and Rider's
art for the Ace of cups?
I have an old copy of Waite's book "The Pictorial Key to the Tarot" -
a 1976 printing... and it is the "SIXTH" printing...so you would think that
errors would have been rectified by then...not so!

The card image Waite "uses in this book" has "five" streams pouring out of
the Ace of Cups...and you are right that on the page to the left of the
card image, he says: "...four streams are pouring..."

I think that it is supposed to be "five" streams, and that he somehow made
an error in the text when he said "four" streams.

Re: the Hanson-Roberts deck, the Ace of Cups only has "4" streams. Maybe
she was just following Waits's text and not the image he used in the book.

I think "the image he used" speaks for itself as being the correct one he meant.

Top   #10


 


 


Tarot Cards & Reviews Free Tarot Readings Tarot Books Tarot Card Meanings Forum Archive
Aeclectic Tarot Forum Links
· Tarot
· Tarot Special Interest
· Beyond Tarot
· Forum Library

Aeclectic Tarot Categories
· Angel Decks
· Dark & Gothic Decks
· Goddess Decks
· Fairy Decks
· Doreen Virtue Decks
· Beginner Decks
· Cat Decks
· Pagan & Wiccan Decks
· Ancient Egyptian Decks
· Celtic Decks
· Lenormand Decks
· Rider-Waite Decks
· Marseilles Decks
· Thoth Decks
· Oracle Decks
· List All Decks
· Popular Tarot Decks
· Available Decks
· Tarot Books
· What's New

The Aeclectic Tarot Forum closed permanently on July 14th, 2017. The public threads remain online as a read-only archive and resource. More information on our decision can be found here. Thank you for being a part of our active community over the past seventeen years.

Copyright © 1996 - 2017 Aeclectic Tarot. All rights reserved. Privacy Policy. Contact us.