Just Curious...

Zephyros

I really don't mean to be that annoying person... but, why not?

Good question. I doubt there is a satisfying answer, though. One is a symbol of infinity, the other a pair of symbols with a definite beginning and end. I guess I can't really explain it because to me it is as obvious as the difference between A and B, they're just different, and are used differently. Probably someone else will have a better answer.
 

Richard

I can't see an "Alpha and Omega" on Adjustment. Where is it?
 

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Zephyros

I can't see an "Alpha and Omega" on Adjustment. Where is it?

On the scales. On the left there's actually an A while on the right there's the Omega. There's also a hint of an Omega on Death (the flowers).
 

Richard

On the scales. On the left there's actually an A while on the right there's the Omega. There's also a hint of an Omega on Death (the flowers).
Thanks. I didn't notice the "A," and the "Ω" looks looks like the top part of the Libra glyph. My bad.
 

Amanda

Good question. I doubt there is a satisfying answer, though. One is a symbol of infinity, the other a pair of symbols with a definite beginning and end. I guess I can't really explain it because to me it is as obvious as the difference between A and B, they're just different, and are used differently. Probably someone else will have a better answer.

I think that is probably where "my" answer is going to come from... I need to figure out where their heads were at with the leminscate and Alpha and Omega.

My soul/personality cards are 8/17 -- so I don't like the feeling of an 'unknown' or 'not certain' answer for Strength/Justice. :D

But for certain, Waite did not change anything after the Thoth? It was always the same as it originally was before Crowley's Thoth came about?

Interesting that they were both Libra men, asserting what is "right".
 

Zephyros

I think that is probably where "my" answer is going to come from... I need to figure out where their heads were at with the leminscate and Alpha and Omega.

My soul/personality cards are 8/17 -- so I don't like the feeling of an 'unknown' or 'not certain' answer for Strength/Justice. :D

Well, there actually is kind of an answer, but I probably don't understand your question, especially since there seems to be a kind of mix up. One isn't the other, and as I said, there is no Alpha & Omega on Strength, nor was there ever (as far as I know). I'm really confused, are you asking why two different people used two different symbols for two different purposes? Or are you asking about ordering an numbering, which is a wholly different question... :confused:

I would like to answer you, I just have to know what it is exactly that I'm answering...

But for certain, Waite did not change anything after the Thoth? It was always the same as it originally was before Crowley's Thoth came about?

Interesting that they were both Libra men, asserting what is "right".

The RWS was published in 1909, the Thoth was completed during the forties and wasn't published until much later. The two decks really don't have that much connection in terms of back-and-forth between their creators. Crowley had his own agenda while Waite had his, and Waite didn't (and wouldn't) change his deck because of the Thoth, even if he had been in a position to do so by the time it came out.
 

Richard

Yes, the leminscate -- it's connected to Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, infinity, isn't it?
Infinity is timeless. It has no beginning or end.

Interesting... so he wasn't checking out Crowley's work?.....
The Waite deck preceded the Thoth by many years.

I'm afraid I don't understand your question about who changed what. Nobody changed anything. Waite and Crowley each designed a Tarot deck with different purposes in mind.
 

Amanda

Well, there actually is kind of an answer, but I probably don't understand your question, especially since there seems to be a kind of mix up. One isn't the other, and as I said, there is no Alpha & Omega on Strength, nor was there ever (as far as I know). I'm really confused, are you asking why two different people used two different symbols for two different purposes? Or are you asking about ordering an numbering, which is a wholly different question... :confused:

I would like to answer you, I just have to know what it is exactly that I'm answering...

I'm confusing myself and dragging you down with me, I see. :D

Okay, originally, beyond Waite, Justice should be number 8 and Strength should be number 11 according to some other thing I have no idea about (Golden Dawn)? Right? Or is that wrong? It seems like something Crowley was pissed about, and needed to set "right"...yes?

I'm wondering now, if it was Waite's misinterpretation of the leminscate for Alpha and Omega, because look -- silly me did it. :D I have been thinking that those two symbols are a different interpretation/perspective of the same thing... but you are telling me they are not.

And, my weirdness is kicking in and my brain is trying to make a connection between three cards. The Magician, then either Strength OR Justice, and then the World. My brain is trying to make that connection to show me which one (Strength or Justice) is actually the "right" one as number 11. Something is there amongst those three cards for me to figure out, per my brain. :D My brain is saying, "...therein (those three cards) lies the truth, notice the pattern and figure it out..." but because I've worked pretty exclusively with RWS, it doesn't mean that his way is the 'truth' -- apparently my brain is just noticing a pattern that will prove or disprove him and give me the 'truth'.

I can't figure it out, but it feels like Strength should be depicting Alpha and Omega and be number 11, while Justice should not depict that and while being number 8. But I don't know because I can't decipher the pattern my brain is picking up on.

The RWS was published in 1909, the Thoth was completed during the forties and wasn't published until much later. The two decks really don't have that much connection in terms of back-and-forth between their creators. Crowley had his own agenda while Waite had his, and Waite didn't (and wouldn't) change his deck because of the Thoth, even if he had been in a position to do so by the time it came out.

Okay, gotcha there. Confusion lifted, hallelujah! :D
 

prudence

Amanda,

I don't know if this will help, but the original decks that most tarot decks are based on had Justice at 8 and Strength at 11. Look at some TdM style decks or others that are older than Thoth/Waite's decks. I tend to feel that 8 as Justice/11 as Strength fits better. It feels right, as nebulous as that may seem.
 

Richard

In the Marseille, Strength is 11 and Justice is 8. In the Golden Dawn, Strength is 8 and Justice is 11. Waite used the Golden Dawn numbering. Crowley used the earlier Marseille numbering.

However, the numbering is a superficial difference and doesn't even begin tell the whole story. Crowley's apparent reversion to the Marseille numbering is not directly related to the cardinal number placement of the Strength and Justice cards. It has to do with the Hebrew letter correlations of the Emperor and Star cards (as well as the Strength and Justice cards) and their positions on the Hermetic Tree of Life. I could go into details, but it would take us far afield from your original post into the intricacies of the Sepher Yetzirah and Crowley's mathematical/astrological notion of the "double loop" connection between Justice-Strength and Emperor-Star.