Significators for a slightly unusual horary

RohanMenon

The question is "What will happen during the transits of Jupiter over my natal Uranus [1] in the coming months [2]"?

I'm trying to use Horary to get a glimpse into a future astrological phenomenon (in this case a transit over a natal planet) manifestinrg. It is a little meta, using Horary to try to predict the effect, if any, of a yet-to-happen transit, but since Lilly deals with alchemy etc with his horary practice. This should work

Questions

[A] Which significators should I use? Since this is a question that affects me, I get the first house, and since astrology/prophecy etc come under the 9th house, I choose the 9th house Lord as the quesited significator. Is this correct?

When using Whole Sign Houses, (I'm trying this out and this is causing some confusion, my usual house system is Placidus) is it enough that a *sign* based aspect exist between the significators?

Specifically (using Fagan Bradley Sidereal + Whole Sign Houses) for 14:54 hrs, 22 November 2016, Bangalore India, I have

Lord of ASC(Pisces rising) = Jupiter at 20 Virgo, so in the 7th Whole Sign House and Lord of the 9th (Scorpio) Mars at 14 Capricorn (11th Whole Sign House)

If we use the modern 'orb' system of 3 degrees either side, the significators are *barely* forming an applying trine

If we use Al Beruni moeity (my preferred choice), this is a solid trine, which has already 'engaged' and begun to come to perfection

If we use sign based aspects, this is a trine by sign, and approaching perfection.

I was wondering if the last were enough, to do horary with Whole Sign Houses? Or should we still use moiety?

The answer to this question (what will happen during the upcoming transit) would seem to hinge on the essential and accidental dignities of the 9th House Lord,here Mars, which is in Capricorn and exalted, so good dignity and Jupiter which is in detriment, but he is angular (practically conjunct DESC) and ruling 1st and 10th houses. Which brings me to

How does one factor in angularity in Whole Sign Horary? Jupiter is conjunct the descendant and would be considered angular using Placidus. When using WSH Is it sufficient for Jupiter to be (somewhere) in one of the 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th houses (== signs in WSH) Or does it need to be near the actual ASC/DESC etc points?

[C] To answer the question of what would happen during these transits (if anything) would the correct approach would be to look at the aspect last formed and to be formed , by the 9th house Lord?

(Lilly does something like this, where in the very first horary chart he examines in vol 2, he uses the past and future aspects of the *significator* - Lord of the ascendant (Sun in that example) to determine what has and will happen (you had a quarrel with your wife over property matters, but this will be settled thanks to a high placed officials efforts etc)- . This is something very new to me, I've heard of looking at the past and future aspects of the Moon, but never a non lunar body, but it seems to work for Lilly)

thanks in advance,

[1] I generally don't use planets beyond Saturn for transits , either as transiting or transited planets, or for any other astrological analysis but Uranus is exactly conjunct my IC, and I've noticed drastic effects as it received transits over the years. Experience trumps theory.

[2] 3 hits - one forward, one backward, then forward again

RohanMenon

Adapting Minderwiz's technique from Sharla's thread

The 9th House Ruler, Mars ,is at 14 Capricorn. 11th House. (Saturn is in Scorpio, 9th House,so there is mutual reception too)

Domicile Ruler; Saturn, in 9th, rules 11th and 12th Houses
Exaltation Ruler: Saturn, repeat
Triplicity Ruler: Venus , in 10th conjunct MC rules 3d and 8th Houses
Term Ruler: Venus again
Decan Ruler ; Mars, rules 9th and 2nd houses.

Overall seems to have a 11th House major 9th+10th House Minor emphasis , which is where the transit should manifest **if applying the technique here is appropriate** (which it probably is not,)

Minderwiz

RohanMenon said:
The question is "What will happen during the transits of Jupiter over my natal Uranus [1] in the coming months [2]"?

I'm trying to use Horary to get a glimpse into a future astrological phenomenon (in this case a transit over a natal planet) manifestinrg. It is a little meta, using Horary to try to predict the effect, if any, of a yet-to-happen transit, but since Lilly deals with alchemy etc with his horary practice. This should work

so what is your precise horary question? And if you've already cast a chart, can you give the details, as I have to try and imagine it otherwise (with probably bits missing)

RohanMenon said:
Questions

[A] Which significators should I use? Since this is a question that affects me, I get the first house, and since astrology/prophecy etc come under the 9th house, I choose the 9th house Lord as the quesited significator. Is this correct?

Depends on the question you asked. If the question is Will the Astrological transit produce any effects? or 'What will the effects of the Astrological Transit be?' Then there's a good argument for using the ninth for the transit, though I'm struggling to see why you have not simply done a natal forecast and then wait to see what, if anything, happens.

If your question is what effects will I experience between dates X and Y, then it's more a question about you and is therefore first house only. If you've looked at the transit and see possible effects, then you would use the houses relevant to those effects in a question such as 'Will X happen between dates X and Y?'

RohanMenon said:
When using Whole Sign Houses, (I'm trying this out and this is causing some confusion, my usual house system is Placidus) is it enough that a *sign* based aspect exist between the significators?

No it's not enough (unless it's a mutual reception). A sign based aspect shows some connection but it doesn't effect the matter. In horary you're looking for an applying aspect between significators that will perfect in the future and that for both significators this is their next aspect )though Translation of light, the Moon and Antisicia may also need to be considered, if the first criterion here fails.

I don't think any Horary Astrologer, from Sahl onwards has taken a Sign based aspect as having the effect of bringing a matter to perfection, unless it's the aforementioned Mutual Reception.

RohanMenon said:

Specifically (using Fagan Bradley Sidereal + Whole Sign Houses) for 14:54 hrs, 22 November 2016, Bangalore India, I have

Lord of ASC(Pisces rising) = Jupiter at 20 Virgo, so in the 7th Whole Sign House and Lord of the 9th (Scorpio) Mars at 14 Capricorn (11th Whole Sign House)

If we use the modern 'orb' system of 3 degrees either side, the significators are *barely* forming an applying trine

If we use Al Beruni moeity (my preferred choice), this is a solid trine, which has already 'engaged' and begun to come to perfection

If we use sign based aspects, this is a trine by sign, and approaching perfection.

I was wondering if the last were enough, to do horary with Whole Sign Houses? Or should we still use moiety?

Click to expand...

If you're trying to test Lilly's methods then I'd advise you to use Regiomontanus and the Tropical Zodiac - Fagan-Bradley wasn't around when Lilly wrote (and neither was Placidus, or at least it wasn't around enough for him to have tables and to use it).

If you're trying to do something a bit broader and trying to consider the Western approach to Horary, then there are certainly very good Astrologers who used Whole Sign Houses but by Sahl's time the Tropical Zodiac was accepted and neither he nor his successors would have dreamed of using a sidereal zodiac. They were aware of Jyotish of course but they didn't attempt to copy its sidereal zodiac(s)

Even more generally, I'm not sure the Western system of Essential Dignities is valid under a sidereal zodiac that is divorced from the seasons. When these dignities first evolved, the zodiac had both sidereal and tropical co-incidence. Valens refers to Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn as Tropical Signs
but in a modern sidereal zodiac, they are significantly out of sync with the tropics.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I honestly don't know the answer to this. But that area of ignorance is going to cause issues with your learning.

Lilly would have used moieties, as would his Medieval forebears.

I suppose at this juncture, I should point out that Uranus was unknown to them and that raises a whole series of questions about whether such a transit is valid. However, I'm sure you've already thought of that one.

RohanMenon said:

The answer to this question (what will happen during the upcoming transit) would seem to hinge on the essential and accidental dignities of the 9th House Lord,here Mars, which is in Capricorn and exalted, so good dignity and Jupiter which is in detriment, but he is angular (practically conjunct DESC) and ruling 1st and 10th houses. Which brings me to

How does one factor in angularity in Whole Sign Horary? Jupiter is conjunct the descendant and would be considered angular using Placidus. When using WSH Is it sufficient for Jupiter to be (somewhere) in one of the 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th houses (== signs in WSH) Or does it need to be near the actual ASC/DESC etc points?

Click to expand...

As I commented above using the ninth depends on the question and with this question, I'm not sure that you need to use the ninth.

If you have a prophecy (forecast) for the transit, then it would be perfectly valid to ask whether the prophecy will come true, using the ninth. Of you could take the individual events forecast and ask about each of them, using the same chart.

If the significator is in houses 1, 4, 7 or 10 using WSH it is angular. Proximity to the ASC or DESC gives some indication of strength. With the MC/IC, these can occur in other places (houses) but towards the end of the Hellenistic period (pre-Horary) the MC was also considered as a significant for honours, preferment, career, etc. So using a rather facetious example if your MC was in the eighth a career as a Funeral Director might be appropriate (or possibly an Assassin, or the keeper of the client's wife's purse'

Don't take those examples too seriously but you would look at both MC and the Tenth Place in questions about career and status. I've actually done that but it's not Lilly.

RohanMenon said:

[C] To answer the question of what would happen during these transits (if anything) would the correct approach would be to look at the aspect last formed and to be formed , by the 9th house Lord?

(Lilly does something like this, where in the very first horary chart he examines in vol 2, he uses the past and future aspects of the *significator* - Lord of the ascendant (Sun in that example) to determine what has and will happen (you had a quarrel with your wife over property matters, but this will be settled thanks to a high placed officials efforts etc)- . This is something very new to me, I've heard of looking at the past and future aspects of the Moon, but never a non lunar body, but it seems to work for Lilly)

thanks in advance,

Click to expand...

You will note in Lilly's approach to events (accidents) in the future, he's concerned with Lord 1, and then notable placements and applications. He doesn't really choose one house in advance to be the specific event (because, of course, it's the nature of the events that he's trying to discover).

RohanMenon said:

[1] I generally don't use planets beyond Saturn for transits , either as transiting or transited planets, or for any other astrological analysis but Uranus is exactly conjunct my IC, and I've noticed drastic effects as it received transits over the years. Experience trumps theory.

[2] 3 hits - one forward, one backward, then forward again

Click to expand...

OK, that explains why you've gone for Uranus but take your experience and decide

Do all transits to Uranus produce effects or only some of them? (that might help to narrow down the likely type of effects)

Over what period do you experience the events? (that timescale will be helpful in setting the horary period.

Are your sure that it's always Uranus and not the IC, that's the trigger?

RohanMenon

so what is your precise horary question? And if you've already cast a chart, can you give the details, as I have to try and imagine it otherwise (with probably bits missing)

I did add this information later in the post, but it should probably be at the beginning, especially for people who are reading this post.

Here it is

Question: What will happen during the forthcoming Jupiter transits to my natal Uranus?
Chart: for 14:54 hrs, 22 November 2016, Bangalore India (using Fagan Bradley Sidereal Zodiac + Whole Sign Houses)
Here is a link to the chart on astro.com (don't know how long it will stay up)

http://www.astro.com/cgi/chart.cgi?...&ayanam=0&helgeo=geo&rs=0&node=-Yn&orbp=&ast=

If you're trying to test Lilly's methods then I'd advise you to use Regiomontanus and the Tropical Zodiac - Fagan-Bradley wasn't around when Lilly wrote (and neither was Placidus, or at least it wasn't around enough for him to have tables and to use it).

I certainly use Tropical + Regiomontanus, when learning/working through Lilly. The point of this learning though, is to adopt techniques to work with my preferred Sidereal Zodiac, where solar and lunar returns, and other (Fagan) 'angular' approaches work very well.

A technique that works only in the Tropical Zodiac is useless *to me*, since I plan to stick with the Sidereal Zodiac. So for example, I don't use antiscia (except when working through a textbook that does) because it is conceptually based on the Tropical Zodiac.

Even more generally, I'm not sure the Western system of Essential Dignities is valid under a sidereal zodiac that is divorced from the seasons. When these dignities first evolved, the zodiac had both sidereal and tropical co-incidence. Valens refers to Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn as Tropical Signs
but in a modern sidereal zodiac, they are significantly out of sync with the tropics.

But even the Western Tropical Zodiac synchs with the seasons only in Western European latitudes. In the Southern Hemisphere the seasons are reversed, and even in India, which is in the Northern Hemisphere, but much close to the equator, the season transitions (and the seasons themselves) are nothing like the Western Zodiac 'predictions'. And yet the essential dignities seem to work just fine for people born in Australia.

I suspect (without proof) that the underlying 'truth' of dignities have nothing to do with their synching to the weather at a particular place, though they might have *originated* from observations of the weather in Greece or wherever. Else, it would be impossible to evaluate dignities for someone born in Australia or for Australian astrologers to use these dignities in Horary.

In my *limited personal experience*, the dignities seem to work just fine with sidereal zodiac, but show a different perspective (lords of houses change, but the answer stays the same).

I am sure there are problematic horary charts out there which have different answers depending on which zodiac is used, but I haven't encountered them yet.

I *suspect* (again, without proof) that a specific school of astrology (zodiacs, house divisions etc) provides us a *symbol system* to access an underlying time based reality, and that they all 'work'. Different schools of Western/Mediterreanean astrology seems to be to be Portugese vs SPanish, and not say English vs Chinese, which have completely different foundations.

The proof of the pudding is whether one can predict accurately with the tools one has, and so these experiments with techniques continue.

If the significator is in houses 1, 4, 7 or 10 using WSH it is angular. Proximity to the ASC or DESC gives some indication of strength. With the MC/IC, these can occur in other places (houses) but towards the end of the Hellenistic period (pre-Horary) the MC was also considered as a significant for honours, preferment, career, etc. So using a rather facetious example if your MC was in the eighth a career as a Funeral Director might be appropriate (or possibly an Assassin, or the keeper of the client's wife's purse'

Lol, got it. Thanks!

You will note in Lilly's approach to events (accidents) in the future, he's concerned with Lord 1, and then notable placements and applications. He doesn't really choose one house in advance to be the specific event (because, of course, it's the nature of the events that he's trying to discover).

ah *very* good point. I am still on his 'first house' chapter, and assumed he'd do the same with the Lord of whichever house's affairs he was concerned with. If he does this only with the Lord of the Ascendant, then my examination of the 9th house lord's aspects and creating a 'ladder of dignities' for that planet is wrong.

Thank You.

Do all transits to Uranus produce effects or only some of them? (that might help to narrow down the likely type of effects)

Over what period do you experience the events? (that timescale will be helpful in setting the horary period.

Are your sure that it's always Uranus and not the IC, that's the trigger?

Very good questions. From my observations (since I started learning astrology) and reviewing life events, transits to Uranus/IC by Mars, Jupiter and Saturn have effects within a couple of days of the exact conjunction.

It is not clear whether it is Uranus or the IC (they are exactly conjunct) but they do have the characteristics of 'disruptive', 'out of the blue' 'wrenching change of perspective' etc characteristics attributed to Uranus. I suppose they could be made to work with the IC too. Hard to tell. I'll keep observing the coming Jupiter Transits and see what results.

It *might* make some sense to use a non astrological form of divination (say Tarot, not that I know anything about it) to examine forthcoming transits etc, vs using Horary. Something to think about.

PS: The reason I'm not doing predictions with natal charts is that I don't know how to do so with Medieval/Ancient astrology. When I finish Lilly/Valens, I'll do exactly that !