to publish or self publish

HudsonGray

Small printings don't seem to have too much problem selling out. The Rock & Roll tarot, the Blue Moon one, Tarot of the Crone, etc. Limited runs will nab the collectors.

Then there's the low cost ones, sort of simplified, like the Silicone Valley tarot, Hello Kitty Tarot, Stick Figure Tarot--they did ok too.

But those were all under 500 decks or so, if you're thinking 3,000 then that puts it in a whole different ball game.
 

MysticRose

Thanks for all the info! Wow!

I can't thank everyone who has posted here enough for all this information! I am working on a Fractal deck and now fully realize that I will most definitely want someone else to publish it! lol. All that work! Oh my. If no one picks it up for publication, my backup plan will be to print one deck for ME and call it an interesting artistic experience. Thanks again for all the info everyone.

Blessings,
Skydancer
 

M-Press

book with or after?

ho-ho-ho!
I have forgotten all about this valuable thread, (and I saw a couple of similar running!)

So, here I am again, in my dilemmas, and plans...

I decided to maybe do a first self run...i've been selling my tarot art for the last 2 years in a big holiday market in NY... I have a huge email list, of people who are waiting for my deck. Maybe not all of them will actually place the order, but I believe that most of them will...
So, I hope that marketing will not be too painful...

Now, I plan to start my book that will go with it in january, and decided it will be done by April (have no clue how I determined that), but this is the scedule.

The question now is, whether to wait for the book, or to go ahead and publish the deck first. The deck is done, and if I decide no more revising, then I can wrap it up in a week...and then prepress...

but, who would buy the deck, and only later the book, right???
But I can start making some $$$ in the meantime, which I will need espeacially if I have to invest here... Hm...

Could the pre-ordering do anything here?

Also, set or not set?
I totally loved the combo of Tarot of Prague... but you dear baba, seem like you have more hands on things! :)
I plan to keep the decks in my apartment!!!!

Any ideas?

My friend, a photographer told me:
"When I first decided to go for it and become a full time professional photographer,
I didn't know it involved only 5% of shooting!!!!!"
 

baba-prague

Hi M-Press,

Well, you know there are only the two of us (though we work with other people too from time to time) but using a professional printer did cut time for us - it's still hard work but takes less time (obviously) than hand-making each deck. Also - storage, well this is something people often don't think about - I didn't! But yes, storing a pile of books and decks isn't easy. We've found this a bit of a headache (our studio is lovely, but very small) but fortunately our nice bookbinder agreed to store some for us.

Does all this help? I'm not sure it does?

If you are thinking of publishing the deck first and than the book, have a look at some of the comments on the Blue Rose deck. I think there was some agreement that anyone who bought the deck first would have the book sent on later, but it sounds as though this caused all sorts of headaches and misunderstandings all round.

So - I don't know what to advise really. We made the mistake of publishing a lot less decks than sets and this means we have almost run out of decks alone. Most English-speaking people
prefer the sets in fact, but we didn't think about local sales. Most Czechs buy the deck only, because the book is in English whereas we supply a translation of the LWB. For the next deck we plan to print almost half and half sets and decks alone. We're learning! (oh and if you wonder why we didn't think about local sales - well honestly, we hadn't realised how much interest in tarot there now is here).

I don't know how many you are thinking of printing? Maybe you could do a few to try, while you're righting the book. Would that make sense?

Let us know what you decide - and I hope it all goes really well!
 

M-Press

Thanks baba!

your info is certainly useful...
Yes, many people internationally are not into English, and then others want to save money, so...

i tried to calculate, and about 2200 decks alone, are 1 square meter...More than half a big fridge!

i was thinking of doing at about 3000-3500... This is what you did, right?
I think I can sell the first 2000 (maybe I'm too optimistic, who knows), and the rest word to mouth... I thought of doing the online payment thing, although it's not cheap, but worth it...

I agree with you (although I didn't read yet the Rose stuff), but sending the book later, will only increase shipping costs, and create confusion to all sides...

Also I thought of not packaging the book together with the deck... this way I can invest more in the box or whatever I do for the deck... the book belongs eventually to the shelf, after all!

ps: "professional printer": you mean the assembly/put together, right? in oppose to mannual? Otherwise a regular ...printer?
i got a quote from carta Mundi in Belgium, but a bit expensive...and then shipping it allll...don't know...

i can't wait to hear about your new deck!

got to run to sell my art now...
Weather bad, and it's no good...for sales or my skin!!!
 

baba-prague

Well, I honestly can't advise on the print numbers. It would be worth asking other people how many they printed - or will print. Do bear in mind that it takes a lot of work to sell direct. We like it. but some days we simply spend hours packaging and posting - it does take time.

Carta Mundi? We used them for another project a while back. They are good but we had a few problems with colour balance. I don't think you can blame them, I think it's just that it's always a bit risky using any printer at a distance. However, they do understand a lot about cards - and not every printer does.

I'll pm you about printing maybe, rather than go on and on about technical stuff here.

Best of luck with your sales - and with your skin and with the snow (isn't there a great Kiehl's shop in New York - up past Gramercy? Their lipbalm is the best - get yourself some right away!)
 

HudsonGray

I printed up 500 of the Ferret tarot & in a month & a half have sold 200 out of the 500, with wholesale purchases out of those being 80 decks so far, and another 10 decks waiting on a check from someone. Two of the wholesale purchases went to people who have dealers tables at science fiction conventions, and both mentioned that the decks they got went very fast.

For 'marketing' it's been limited to me contacting about 6 stores (online mostly) and with notices over on the appropriate yahoo lists (ferret and tarot interests). Along with getting a deck over to Tarot Garden and Tarot Passages. In spring there's a spirit fair downtown here in our city & I wanted to get a table at that & see what the direct-to-public interest was.

Shipping costs do need to be factored in, and buy a lot of tape. I make labels on the computer so they're easy to read and have been going to the post office about 4 times a week. They'll get to know you pretty fast.

I'd advise against taking pre-bought orders to ship books to later, people move & you'll have no way of getting a book to them if they forgot to update you on the new address. The list of people I kept from January that I was supposed to email once the deck was done ended up being 50% useless, so many had changed their email accounts. Maybe include a slip of paper with the URL or address they can contact you at later, to inquire about a book if they're interested. That way they can check every few months & you won't have inaccurate addresses.
 

M-Press

Hudson Greay, these figures regarding your deck, look great!
What a little ferret can do!!!

And I can see the trips to the post office...talking about what my life will be made of!!!

My "lawyer" visited me yesterday,and he had an other idea...
to do different limited editions..
The one, the first, should include original artwork in the packaging, and be ultra sexy and expensively done, top of teh top...and VERY expensive to sell...like an art collectors item.... Maybe even to hand paint then...a few...

Then a medium limited edition, expensive but affordable, and then the mass...

All cooking, all cooking...
 

cirom

Your "lawyers" idea
to do different limited editions, one of which should be top end......was basically my approach with the Gilded Tarot special edition.
I realised that the price of these decks would be significant, and beyond the budget of most. Indeed, from the onset I had little expectations in terms of sale, it was really more of an aesthetic goal rather than a commercial one. The process I use on these special edition decks results in a quality of colour and detail that the process of a mass produced deck technically cannot match. (colour gammuts, seven inks instead of four etc etc). After spending over 1500 hours in producing the images, I wanted some physical record of that input, and have it reproduced in an optimum way. In doing so I believed that this resulting deck would also have an appeal to others (albeit limited) from a collectors point of view rather than simply another deck for reading. This has indeed proved to be the case to a greater degree than I assumed.
Having said that, many potential customers obviously suffer from sticker shock when they realize the price and probably assume its due to an over the top profit margin. Be warned however, the costs both in materials and time are very high. Believe it or not, in my case, the cost of paper, ink, adhesive and lamination alone exceeds $150, then you have to factor in presentation and wrapping material, once again in my case, a certificate of authenticity, a gift box, commission to Paypal. Not to mention the wear and tear on reasonable high end printers cabaple of the quality. Then there's the actual time it takes to trim each card by hand (shape the corners). No my friend trust me, I'm very proud of the results, and quite comfortable with my investment of time and effort, both for artistic satisfaction, and knowing that I have created something that is highly valued by those who have bought it, and may well increase in value as a collectors item. For me these decks also serve a second marketing role of generating interest and publicity for the upcoming published version from Llewellyn, so its all worthwhile, but as a direct financial return from producing the "Top End" special edition, the excercise is questionable, and you really have to do the "whole" math first
 

M-Press

Thanks Cirom, for all this info!

I guess the cooking gets bigger and bigger!
At some point I'll have to make a list of options and what they mean, and stare at it for a while!!!

What deck did you create? i'm curious, of course!

and how did you sell these limited editions? How did you advertise them?

I have no clue what Tarot collectors are about... are they Tarot lovers that collect and have money, or art collectors, or ?

I was thinking to pre-sell those few, and use the income to invest into the other edition...

In a way also, I see my personal mission to let new people into the tarot... I have been selling my tarot art, mostly to people that own no decks at all! The idea is to use art to "call them in", and then...they are cought!

I also have nothing against high margin profit-especially in the special limited edition ones! The reason is that if I worked on my deck for 3 years, after I quit my job, I will never pay me off anyway... So, no guilt there...
People spend so easy on a pair of earings, not to mention a pair of shoes, why then not on a tarot deck?
But it better be good!