arguments for Justice 8 and Strength 11

flyingwind66

Most decks out there have Strength 8 and Justice 11, the one I learned on has the opposite. I've heard a lot about why Waite-Smith switched them like for the astrological association, the fact that Justice 11 puts it in the middle of the major arcana and that balances everything etc.

But what about what a number of historical decks plus the Thoth deck have... which is Justice 8 and Strength 11?

I've posed a similar question in the Using Tarot forum but I don't think I phrased it right, so altering my language and posing another question (as we do with the tarot)
 

porcupines

Yes I have noticed that as well! My TdM decks do it that way - Justice 8 and Strength 11. Would be interested to see what other more knowledgeable members have to say on this!
 

nisaba

From the beginning of Tarot until Arthur Waite, probably 500 years, it worked wuth Justice as 8 and Strength as 11. Decks that are numbered that way give great readings, they always have. Whenever this gets asked about I'm always a little confused as to *why* people might see this is a problem?
 

Richard

I would suggest asking about this in the Golden Dawn Traditions subforum of the Thoth forum. It is not a popular topic, because when the answer is given, most people either immediately lose interest or else begin to ridicule the answer.

Suffice it to say that the Justice 11 and Strength 8 usage did not originate with A. E. Waite and his Tarot deck, but rather with the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. A. Crowley agreed with it in principle but found it expedient to revert to the Marseille card numbering for mathematical reasons.
 

Nineveh

I read justice at 8 and strength at 11. When I started to learn tarot I would sometimes switch every now and then to "test" which reading was more accurate. The most accurate readings (for me) read with Justice at number 8 and strength at 11.
 

Richard

Nineveh said:
I read justice at 8 and strength at 11. When I started to learn tarot I would sometimes switch every now and then to "test" which reading was more accurate. The most accurate readings (for me) read with Justice at number 8 and strength at 11.
Click to expand...
Why does the numbering of Justice and Strength make any difference? How do you use the numbers 8 and 11 in your readings?
 

Nineveh

LRichard said:
Why does the numbering of Justice and Strength make any difference? How do you use the numbers 8 and 11 in your readings?
Click to expand...

I use the numbers when I do the summary/quint card.
Ex. Empress(3) + 2 of wands + 3 of cups

3 + 2 + 3 = 8
 

dancing_moon

If your question is why traditionally Justice is 8 and Strength is 11, I don't think anybody can really tell for sure. Originally, the Majors didn't have any numbers on them at all, and the order of them really mattered only in the gameplay, I think. At some point over time, they put numbers on the Trumps, perhaps, for easy reference which cards trump which during the game. It's only later that numerology came into the picture.

Hope anyone more knowledgeable can step in and tell us more. :)
 
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