Besançon / Marseille Cards Question

Thanks, Kevin

I'd like to see the followin cards:

II "JVNON" & VIII "LA IVSTICE"
(As to these 2 cards, I have coloured images of
G. Mann deck.)

In addition,
III (A woman sitting on a throne, holding a shield.)
VIIII (an old man, walking and holding a lantern in his right hand.)
King of Swords & Queen of Batons (They may have no titles. can you
identify them?)

Sorry jmd,
Unfortunately "La Force" image is not available

Kenji..I sent you a PM..Kevin

HarryHoudini has sent me some pictures.

Eliminated crowns & titles, the initial "HB" on the shield of
THE CHARIOT...
They gave me the confirmation that these cards were published
by Guillaume Mann, after 1790.

HarryHoudini says only 47 cards are extant, and it seems the 2 of
cups is missing, which should have had the inscription "TAROS FIN
FAIT PAR G. MANN A COLMAR".

By the way, the woodblock of this deck may have been made
not in Colmar, but in another place:
The company Blanck & Tchann (later succeeded by G. Mann)
was founded in 1775, not before 1752, and S.A.Tschann was
from Solothurn, Switzerland....

Thank you kenji...

Woodblock re-usage (and perhaps misappropriation), and hence also deletion of its maker, appears to have been relatively common, by the extant of the number of decks that bears an absence of details where one would normally expect them.

...one mystery down, 2004 to go and increasing each day

I have the two of cups with the inscription above. I just didn't know which one it was till now. If anyone needs a scan, please feel free to ask.

With this and the above info, do we now have a date for these cards? Value?

Thanks....Kevin

To HarryHoudini,
Thanks for the "2 of cups" picture.
It's another firm evidence that this is a G. Mann deck.
(It has the same inscription as I wrote in my last post.)

Time... around 1800...??? I'm really not sure.
I'll make a bit further investigation.
If something more gets clear, I'll let you know here

To jmd,
Yes, I agree with you

By the way, I also have a reproduction of J.B.Benois'
TdB deck by Meneghello.
As to the trumps II, XI & XX, these images can't be
derived from the original Benois' deck.
They have different touches from the rest of the trumps.
Just compare them with the original images, which can be
seen in Kaplan II, p345 (Unfortunately LA FORCE is not here).
Just a few examples of the differences:
In the original deck, JVNON is with two peacocks, not one:
And no flag is attached to the angel's trumpet in LE IUGEMENT.
(This is one of the characteristics of typical TdB.)

A similar LA FORCE card to Benois' can be seen in Depaulis' "TAROT,
JEU ET MAGIE", p77 (Louis Carey's card).

Boy! You guys sure came up with the answer quick! I decided to sell the cards. Now, what to do? I think I'll list them on Ebay. Should I sell them individually, in groups or all together? Before you start yelling at me, I'm just thinking that since the cards are so very rare, if I sell them one card at a time, more people will have a chance to own at least one for their collection. Since most will never see and more likely own these cards for a very long time, this option has it's merits. I know, it's headaches too.

Any suggestions?

Below is what I received from Stuart Kaplan:


Your partial tarot pack is woodblock printed and hand stencil colored. The card maker is Guillaume Mann from Colmar, in the Alsace region of France. Mann worked in the later half of the 18th century and there are references to decks he published in 1795. Your two of coins refers to 1752 which is possible but possibly Mann took existing woodblocks from an earlier card maker. You will note Major Arcana card number II is titled Junon. In some tarot decks The Popess and The Pope (and the High Priestess and the Hierophant respectively) were renamed Junon and Jupiter respectively, generally believed as a concession to the Catholic Church.

Several tarot decks that come to mind with the Junon image similar to the Mann imagery are the French Revolutionary Tarot pack by Carey, Strasbourg, 1791 , illustrated on page 155 of Volume I of The Encyclopedia of Tarot, and in Volume II, Jean Jerger Tarot, Besancon p. 342; J.B. Benois, Strasbourg, p. 345; and Renault, p.351.

The initials in the front emblem on Le Chariot may refer to the wood block carver of the deck. I cannot quite read it, possibly F B or I B?

Collectors usually prefer complete 78 card decks and when there are cards lacking most collectors want to have at least the 22 Major Arcana. Also, your two of coins appears damaged.

From a more positive side, I do not recall seeing a Mann tarot deck prior to your images.

Hope the foregoing proves helpful.

Stuart R. Kaplan

HarryHoudini said:

I'm just thinking that since the cards are so very rare, if I sell them one card at a time, more people will have a chance to own at least one for their collection.

Any suggestions?

Click to expand...

Easy answer.

Let's say you have a set of Cups made by Nepomuk Hofzinser. Would you sell three cups or one set of three...you and I both know the answer to that one.

Same same.

Sell the deck, not the cards.

True, but that's for a complete set of Cups and Balls. Two different animals to me. What do you do if you had only two? I don't even want to go down this road.