Tarot of Marseilles: the cultural & decorative aspects of its pip cards

Diana

smleite said:
Imagine a world in which there were so few images, they could only be found in some very specific places in churches and cloisters, or in facades and interiors of noble and rich houses. Imagine almost no image in the streets, with the exception of maybe a couple of tavern ads. Image that almost no household included a book, or even a piece of paper (a piece of parchment, in fact) and almost no one could read or write. An illuminated manuscript was a rare and oh-so-expensive issue… and who could commit a real painting, even to a lesser, local master? No TV, no magazines, no commercials. NOTHING! Even the use of colour in clothing was scarce, and usually reserved to special occasions. Imagine the power and impact an image held, in this world. Images composed a vocabulary, and it was always a meaningful one; no, they were no mere visual signs. In a society where gold is rare and precious, would you use your piece in a reckless and wasteful manner? Images were significant, and the content of their messages was important and powerful. They were mainly used to propagate all kinds of doctrinal instructions and teachings.

On the other hand, today we are bombed with tons and tons of visual information. There is imagery all over, colours and shapes and letters that are meaningful to you, and you absorb all this all day, every day of your life. And most of it means nothing at all, is just visual rubbish, saturating your eyes and your mind. Your brain must discard and ignore most of it, selecting only a part, or you wouldn’t be able to function. This means that you are not sensitive to most of it any more, the same way a doctor can’t be sensitive to all the pain around him. And an object must be really, really appellative to catch your eye – that is what merchandising is all about. A Tarot deck also. It must be more colourful, more beautiful, more detailed, more interesting visually, them the rest. I think we need to beard this in mind (our mind’s and our environment’s evolution) in order to understand ancient and modern decks.

I tried to choose just one sentence or two in your post, Silvia, so that people would know which post I'm referring to. But I couldn't. It is a whole and by removing any part of it, it would be to damage it.

Gosh.... you speak as if you were walking those streets today. For a minute, I imagined I was with you there... in the Middle Ages. Life was tough. And we walked together down the brown but noisy streets. There were also smells all over - very different to those we know today. And a dog was barking. And we were going to the village square, because we had heard there was a Bateleur passing through, and didn't want to miss out on the excitement.

You write so beautifully, Silvia. You manage to convey such feeling in a language that is not even your own. I can only begin to imagine how PERFECT you must sound when you speak your beautiful native language.

Sophie

smleite said:
Imagine a world in which there were so few images...

I want to quote it all! What a beautiful sword and cup of a post. You drew us back there with the cathedral builders, the tapestry makers and the woodblock carvers.

But there has always been the sun, the sky, the stars, the rivers, the flowers, the pot, the shoe, the club... isn't it amazing how they managed to weave all these into coherent pieces, stained glass windows, heraldic designs, tarot cards?

Perhaps the trouble now is that we do not seek inspiration from the source - the sun, the stars, the shoe - but from other images, and images of images. Saturation builds on saturation.

smleite

Helvetica said:
Perhaps the trouble now is that we do not seek inspiration from the source - the sun, the stars, the shoe - but from other images, and images of images. Saturation builds on saturation.

Just like the reflection of the moon in the water… the reflection of a reflection. Still, the original is always there, even if a bit distorted, and very unfocused. In the cabalistic Tree of Life, this would correspond to Yesod, and above Yesod there is Theperet, or Beauty, which is also a reflection, but a reflection of the original (forgive me to bring Cabala to this discussion, it’s not that I want to specifically use it to justify Tarot, but it depicts this idea so perfectly).

A medieval image - because it is full of symbolic meaning, pregnant with meaning, busting with meaning, and not because it is medieval – is, as I see it, a reflection of the original; as a reflection, it bears some distortion, and we cannot pretend to fully understand the original through it, but it still is a sort of direct reference to its archetypes. A modern image, because its amount of significance is diluted amongst other values – aesthetical values, for instance, but not only – is to me the reflection of a reflection.

Silvia

Sophie

smleite said:
A modern image, because its amount of significance is diluted amongst other values – aesthetical values, for instance, but not only – is to me the reflection of a reflection.

Well, I don't know - this is a rather tranquil image to describe the frantic surcharge of images that bombard us daily...

I have only very few tarot decks, though recently I have acquire more. Still, I have no desire to get to the hundreds, or even the dozens - precisely to avoid that dilution.

There are ways to return us a saner relationship to imagery. Tarot is one very good way - that's one reason why I am attracted to it. Those decks that do call to me all have that quality of calming the crazy processor in my brain, and helping me focus. From that place, I can really enter the world of the image.

MeeWah

Note from Moderator

This subject of this thread culled from various posts in Tarot Decks: Why do people use the Tarot of Marseilles?

~MeeWah
Co-Moderator, Tarot Decks

Shalott

Just wanted to comment on the original thesis of this thread, as to why some ppl don't seem to be remotely interested in Marseille pips vs some believing they are wonderful and in some cases, the only true way.

I'd partly agree as in Europe, perhaps these symbols were or are still widespread. And that in some areas, like probably the US, where I am and have only ever strayed as far as Winnipeg, Canada, this kind of imagery is, well, foreign. Our art here seems to exist in two extremes: the very literal and the downright...bizarre. So, I didn't grow up surrounded by this stuff and therefore, I see now, may be missing quite a bit of the deeper meaning. And yet, this is what I have decided to learn. It hasn't been easy and in many respects I have more obstacles to overcome than many of you (this symbolism being unknown, not knowing French to have access to many great works, having to order darn near everything from overseas), but I don't really know that not growing up with a knowledge of the symbolism is what the obstacle is for many ppl, I think it has to do with the current Trend in tarot reading mixed with the misconceptions out there about the TdM. For the former, it seems that the thing to do nowadays is to make it up one goes, ppl seem to be avoiding anything that smacks of instructions, want to go solely on intuition...and pair this with the incorrect idea that the TdM has a rigid system that is expected to be followed. (This said, I just want to interject that I don't care if ppl decide they don't like it don't want to use it don't even want to try...I only wish that opinion were based on facts rather than misconceptions.) I think it's a question of, for those outside of continental Europe who are new to Tarot, they just want to find something that can be easily grasped to start with, and TdM does appear off-putting at first. Which would take us back to what is in our environment...Sigh, I talk myself in circles sometimes, but I still think there's some ideas in here worth considering...

Sophie

Shalott, part of your post - about new students to Tarot - reminds me of this site:

http://www.villarevak.org/fool/deck.html

-a tongue-in-cheek look at how people new to Tarot in North America are often advised. The entry on Marseille reads:

"Don’t buy the Tarot of Marseilles; the pip cards aren’t illustrated; you’ll have to memorize their meanings.” - to which the author comments: "Something wrong or unspiritual about studying?"

That's part of the problem you flag, I think.
To me, stuyding - even iconography I might be partly familiar with - enhances rather than distracts from intuition. I use intuition for everything in my life, not only Tarot. I also use other parts of my brain, and my whole body! I think some people forget that the tarot has four suits, all of which link up with important parts of the human psyche and imagination - and all have their importance- a well-balanced individual doesn't have all cups and staffs, and no swords or coins. Part of my annoyance with the Golden Dawn system is the use of the word "pentacle", as though "coins" - symbolising good old-fashioned material needs - were somewhat unspiritual and filthy; (likewise with "wand" for "staff").

Thank God an author like Rachel Pollack has restored dignity and the material element to "pentacles".

Shalott

Yeah, that "pentacle" thing bothers me to distraction. What is wrong with COINS? Like, my favorite non-Marseille deck, the Old English, part of why that is is the suits are cups, swords, batons and coins (applause, Maggie Kneen!). (This deck seems to kind of be midway between RWS and Marseille in many respects.)

Yeah, like I said in the contraversial and now defunct "Why do ppl use Marseille" thread, was that these pips helped my intuition grow like a weed. Without ppl with clearly defined facial expressions, and the wide range of ideas to utilize, (suit, number, imagery) it HAD to develop. I realize that everybody's different and maybe those pips-with-ppl help others more, but to say you don't use intuition with TdM is simply not true.

Thanks for the link

, sadly a lot of this advise if found in common books and even right here in the Decks forum. Personally, I think studying numerology, for example, would benefit any serious tarot student, no matter what deck they prefer. I have a friend who recently decided to explore Tarot, and, well, he's kind of a difficult shopper, he OVERshops around...but one piece of advice I gave to him and would give to about anyone brand new: don't assume that the first deck you buy will be the last. But several months later he still loves his Thoth, so maybe in his case it wasn't accurate!

PS: I like #10 on that list...

MeeWah

Shalott said:
... Yeah, like I said in the contraversial and now defunct "Why do ppl use Marseille" thread, was that these pips helped my intuition grow like a weed. Without ppl with clearly defined facial expressions, and the wide range of ideas to utilize, (suit, number, imagery) it HAD to develop. I realize that everybody's different and maybe those pips-with-ppl help others more, but to say you don't use intuition with TdM is simply not true...

A brief interjection to indicate that the thread referred to & original to this thread is not by any means "defunct". It was re-opened after the varous off-topic content removed & is very much "alive", but for lack of attention languishes:

http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=21480

Though I am relatively unfamiliar with the Marseilles tradition & therefore, its pips, that the pips are depicted as they are is a major part of my interest (& also to which I credit Diana, JMD & others). Prior to venturing into the Marseilles pips, the non-illustrated pips of my acquaintance were through the regular playing cards & the Sasha Fenton Tarot deck. Though they have lent themselves well to readings, neither hold the same fascination of the Marseilles--but it may all be in the eyes of the beholder.

Speaking of the eyes of the beholder, I do think that that the lack of exposure to the Marseilles & its design such as its pips responsible for some of the views; & given the longevity of the deck deserves attention.

I understand that the placement of each symbol represented by each flower & leaf, baton & etc; also the colours encompass studies in themselves so this thread amongst others, are of interest (& hindered only by resources).

Sophie

Islamic artistic influence

I'd like to come back to the influence of islamic art on playing cards in general, and the tarot in particular.

Here's an example of what I found just looking on the net

http://a_pollett.tripod.com/cards.htm

Look at the 10 of coins of the earliest known Arabic deck, which far precedes European cards. The arrangement of the coins is very familiar to the early European cards, including TdM and its cousins, and the decorative features, though far more floral, nevertheless bears a great resemblance. I remember seeing the TdM pips for the first time and thinking there were some clear islamic influences there. Interesting.

The author has this to say about the Arabic influence on playing cards:

It has been suggested that playing cards were born in China, sometime around the 10th century AD. They were likely domino cards, i.e. the ones that represent a throw of two dice, very similar to the ones still used today in the Far East, and just slightly different from common domino tiles now used in many countries.
A few centuries later, playing cards were in use by the Arabs, and soon after they spread also to the Western world.

Arabic deck known This was the result of the commercial and cultural relationship between the Mediterranean countries and the Arabic world, in particular the Mamlûks, who spread along the northern coast of Africa.
The archaic Italian word for "playing cards", naibi, and the Spanish equivalent, naipes, still used, both come from the Arabic word na'ib, meaning "delegate" or "deputy".
"Deputies" were two court cards of the old Arabic deck: the "king's deputy" (or "king's delegate") and the "second deputy" (or "religious minister"). Such cards did not feature the relevant personages as human figures, according to the Islamic tradition, but only stated the names of the three ranks at the base of the subject.
The oldest surviving set of cards of this kind is known as Mulûk wa-Nuwwâb ("Kings and Deputies"), held by the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey. It was composed of four suits, each of which had fourteen cards (ten suit cards and four courts), for a total of 56 subjects.

The suits of the Arabic deck were:
Coins

Darâhim - Cups

Tûmân - Swords

Suyûf - Polo-sticks (remember that Cavalier de Deniers?)

Jawkân - Coins

I wonder if the Islamic Middle East influence the tarot (pips and courts) more than in its suits, court cards and decorative features? I.e. in the symbolism and the metaphysics? The 11th-13th centuries BC were interesting times for the development of islamic mysticism, science and mathematics. I can imagine too influence of the Jewish Moors in Spain. Has anyone tried to make the link? (surely!!!)

Tarot of Marseilles: the cultural & decorative aspects of its pip cards

Diana

Sophie

smleite

Sophie

MeeWah

Shalott

Sophie

Shalott

MeeWah

Sophie