northsea
Here's another question I'll add to the Visconti question: Do any people here believe that the Heron/Dodal/Noblet Marseille is the Ur rather than the Rothschild or Cary sheets?
Rothschild, Cary Sheets - and Marseille
jmd
Personally, I do not consider that any existing depiction represents the Ür-deck, but that, rather, there is something more archetypal (and un-manifest - and that is the ÜR) that gets reflected rather more or less closely in the various decks.
In that sense, the Dodal and Conver approximate the Ür-Marseille (and I would also claim the Ür-Tarot) more than either the Visconti or Cary-sheet do.
In that sense, the Dodal and Conver approximate the Ür-Marseille (and I would also claim the Ür-Tarot) more than either the Visconti or Cary-sheet do.
Huck
I guess, the Ur Tarot derived from the Ur-desire of humans to paint or to create figures, and second to this, from the Ur-disire of humans to sort things, which in this case meant, sort the prepared paintings. And all this together formed then the first Ur-Gallery, in which the Ur-humans could buy with Ur-money first only single cards, but later complete decks ... 
...we've really no good chance to capture first paintings and first activities by date, so it's somehow wise to reduce the question to that what happened on small pieces of paper and was used finally in specific contexts, as there is ... card-playing. And second to this it's wise to reduce the question to that what we definitely can know, and take only occasionally some looks to that, what we perhaps can hypothetically assume on the base of correct thinking about the as sure assumed data. ... and generally, when the already by serious men/women collected facts about early playing cards subjectively still are in a somehow unexplored state, then somehow the intellectual base to discuss something like "Ur-Tarot" isn't still reached.
"Wer den Hirsch jagt ohne Förster, der verirrt sich nur im Wald." I-Ching, hex. 3, line 3, translation Richard Wilhelm ...., after collecting data to the real origin of the Bavarian Animal Tarot, which according to Sylvia Mann has good chances to be originally a Belgian Animal Tarot.
A major part of playing card researchers agrees, that something, which was called in 15th century "Trionfi" cards, was somehow relatable to that, what was later called Tarot cards. The earliest deck, which is named by a 15th century contemporary speaker in this way, is the Michelino deck, which well documented was produced with some security 1425 or a little earlier.
http://trionfi.com/0/b/
And before there is nothing. And a longer time after ... there is also nothing till ca. 1440. If anything should be called Ur-Tarot, then it is this deck.
...we've really no good chance to capture first paintings and first activities by date, so it's somehow wise to reduce the question to that what happened on small pieces of paper and was used finally in specific contexts, as there is ... card-playing. And second to this it's wise to reduce the question to that what we definitely can know, and take only occasionally some looks to that, what we perhaps can hypothetically assume on the base of correct thinking about the as sure assumed data. ... and generally, when the already by serious men/women collected facts about early playing cards subjectively still are in a somehow unexplored state, then somehow the intellectual base to discuss something like "Ur-Tarot" isn't still reached.
"Wer den Hirsch jagt ohne Förster, der verirrt sich nur im Wald." I-Ching, hex. 3, line 3, translation Richard Wilhelm ....
, after collecting data to the real origin of the Bavarian Animal Tarot, which according to Sylvia Mann has good chances to be originally a Belgian Animal Tarot. A major part of playing card researchers agrees, that something, which was called in 15th century "Trionfi" cards, was somehow relatable to that, what was later called Tarot cards. The earliest deck, which is named by a 15th century contemporary speaker in this way, is the Michelino deck, which well documented was produced with some security 1425 or a little earlier.
http://trionfi.com/0/b/
And before there is nothing. And a longer time after ... there is also nothing till ca. 1440. If anything should be called Ur-Tarot, then it is this deck.
Fulgour
Tarot Speaks for Itself
Why do some authors celebrate the Cary Sheet as if
it were a miraculous Rosetta Stone of Tarot history.
With complete decks of 78 cards available, why then
set aside physical evidence for a fanciful speculation.
Why do some authors celebrate the Cary Sheet as if
it were a miraculous Rosetta Stone of Tarot history.
With complete decks of 78 cards available, why then
set aside physical evidence for a fanciful speculation.
Huck
Fulgour said:
It seems we've here some sort of Karma. Once it was debated with hot ears, if "English school" or "French School" knew the right interpretation of Tarot cards, and all, what was known, reached 19th century and nothing earlier. . Now the "English School" seems to be a little cured by books from Kaplan and others, learning, that there was something before their favoured object, but still the French School, not confronted by the same opposition, tries to save some majority, now against much older Italian documents and in a totally different context.
If there is something real to any theories about a French origin of Tarot before a specific date ... why it is so difficult to present the related information in an ordered controllable way at an internet page for instance? Open to serious discussion? And if this is not possible ... one can learn from this, that it is only fiction, the related hypotheses disqualify themselves by their own passivity.
jmd
Huck's comment brings of course to question what is and what is not Tarot.
From a strictly historical perspective, there are numerous extant decks that precede the earliest extant Tarot - and this latter I would characterise as having the requisite 78 cards divided into the five suits as we roughly know them.
This is not to say that cards did not exist prior to this Tarot, but rather that these other (and oft related decks) are not Tarot per se.
If the Visconti decks do not consist of 78 cards, are they truly Tarot? much will of course hinge on the sense as to what Tarot is understood as being.
The Italian sub-strata and relation to Tarot is clearly also there, as are the other various syncretic strands entertwining themselves within what emerges as Tarot. This does not make of each of these strands itself 'tarot'.
From a strictly historical perspective, there are numerous extant decks that precede the earliest extant Tarot - and this latter I would characterise as having the requisite 78 cards divided into the five suits as we roughly know them.
This is not to say that cards did not exist prior to this Tarot, but rather that these other (and oft related decks) are not Tarot per se.
If the Visconti decks do not consist of 78 cards, are they truly Tarot? much will of course hinge on the sense as to what Tarot is understood as being.
The Italian sub-strata and relation to Tarot is clearly also there, as are the other various syncretic strands entertwining themselves within what emerges as Tarot. This does not make of each of these strands itself 'tarot'.
Sophie
Huck said:
According to Diana's posted email -and as he mentions on his site - Kris Hadar believes that the link between France (actually Southern France - very different) and Italy is found in Occitania and the culture of the troubadours and the Cathars (some troubadours were cathars and sang their faith and the Fin d'Amor, the Court of Love.
Here is the link - not very developed idea here, more so in the email Diana posted:
http://krishadar.com/A/Index1A.asp
Apparently he is working on a book.
France conquered Occitania in the late 13th century, in the guise of a crusade to eradicate the Cathars (the Albigensians); killed its men and women , disbanded or subordinated its great courts, partially destroyed its culture, attacked and almost (not quite) destroyed its language, declared illegal its Cathar religious beliefs, and murdered Cathar adherents, marginalised its imagery, its poetry, its music. The centre of gravity shifted North, dramatically. The geographical area that was once a whole political and cultural world called Occitania is now part of modern France. You woud probably think of it as "France " (and so it is, history having made her mark!). A few years later France took over Provence (of which Marseille is the largest city) and also undermined its culture, language, etc. (close to that of Occitania, but very different from the 13th century French culture- what we now see as Northern France)
Hadar believes that the tarot - not perhaps in the form of a deck, but in the form of an idea, an iconography, archetypes and symbolism - was born in Occitania (and I would add, in Provence). There were close links between Occitania, Provence, Catalunia and Italy, and many of the persecuted fled to friendlier places - the Italian city-states or Catalunia where the duke welcomed them. But it is the link Occitania-Provence-Italy that interests us: because that is possibly- probably I would hasard - the road travelled by the specific ideas and imagery that gave rise to tarot - and Tarot - not long after.
I would speculate thus:
The religious doctrine of the Cathars, neo-platonic, gnostic and Zoroastrian in origin (with a few stops along the way), which pervaded Occitan, and to some point Provençal, religious and secular culture, gave us some clear archetypes in the Tarot: II - the Papesse (or La Pances, which sounds like an Occitan or Provençal word to me) - Cathar women preachers, missionaries and wisewomen, human images of the Soul; Le Pape - the Bridge that the Soul can take to reach a higher level on her way to his Divine Bride; or the Teacher that the seeker will follow to reach higher truths - represents Cathar elders. VI - L'Amoureux: the choice that the seeker has between his soul and his body (very important distinction for the Cathars, who believed Christ was so Perfect he was just an image, he did not have a real body); La Justice- Divine Justice, personified, close to the gonostic image of Sophia; L'Hermite- the Cathar wiseman, pilgrim and missionary; La Roue de La Fortune - Cathar belief in Predestination and transmigration; Le Pendu - Cathar belief in meditation and retiring in quiet, and in trial leading to illumination (which they shared with Catholics, though their version was more rdical);XIII - Cathars believed in transmigration, therefore Death was just a passage to a new earthly life - represented one step closer to the Soul meeting the Divine, every death was a grace; Temperance - the waters of good an evil flowing one into the other; the Devil - the other Demiurge, co-existing and co-creator with God; |i]la Maison-Dieu[/i] - what happens to the Cathar faithful when they leap forward to the Divine, possibly a representation of Cathar strongholds in the moutains, which were attacked and destroyed, though the inhabitants cosidered themselves "liberated", held out and died to the last; l'Etoile- the hope the Cathar have of uniting with the Divine; Le Monde - the joining as One of the Soul with the Divine, after many turns round La Roue.
I've missed some out: Occitan culture was very rich - the whole Troubadour and Fin d'Amor culture came and knitted itself with the Cathar - born of the same soil and in the same people, of all conditions. So Le Bateleur is gifted artisan and troubadour -Le Mat (possibly a Persian word, possibly a link to Zoroastrianism) is clearly some kind of entertainer - probably also some kind of troubadour, but less "official" and educated than the Bateleur - a holy fool in the antique way. He could also be the vision of the secretive Cathar missionary after the French conquest, chased from everywhere, an outlaw wanted by the Inquisition, who survives on his wits, singing, dancing and keeping the faith alive. The Imperatrice is la Dame in her earthy, fertile incarnation, La Lune (linked thematically to La Papesse) la Dame in her spiritual incarnation. L'Empereur can clearly be ascribed to one of the great lords of Occitania or Provence who held the Fin D'Amor - Duke William IX of Aquitaine or Count Raimon V of Toulouse, maybe?
Some ideas were clearly added- and why not? As Moongold said in another thread, thoughts are rarely singular, they travel together in groups and flow one into the other. Le Jugement springs to mind, a Catholic idea; the adoption of Pape and Papesse as names, and Empereur and Impératrice; the Chariot - although it could be shown as the ardent Soul rushing towards his Divine Bride (I'm not keen on that one); La Force- a Roman idea, I'd say. La Lune sounds very very gnostic to me! But I can't find any reference ot it in Cathar theology. The troubadours did sing to Luna, of course... Le Soleil? - another gnostic idea, of course. But the link? Probably more a Renaissance one.
Another reason for Occitania as primary influence- the scimitars. Spain is next door.
All these ideas moved and circulated and shifted shapes, of course, were fertilised, and discussed and added to other ideas along the way; the Renasisance courts LOVED intellectual and metaphysical speculations along the lines of "how would a Soul approach its Bride?" Eventually the Tarot, no longer ideal but playing cards, came back from Italy to Provence - what more likely that it should end up in cosmopolitan Marseille? - and thence to the world.
So I'd say that the French had adopted and appropriated an idea - and a tool - not originally their own; but it is thanks to their long-ago genocide in the South that the ideas that cristallised (fixed, which can be only a feeble image) into tarot cards were transported from Occitania to Provence to Italy, where the fun-loving Italians, loving games and riddles, added to them, threw some of themaway, and turned some of them into cards.
Huck
Thanks, Helvetica, this was very informative.
Just one question: Do you personally agree with the consideration, that you described?
Just one question: Do you personally agree with the consideration, that you described?
northsea
Hi Helvetica,
If the Italians did indeed adopt the tarot from the Occitanians, does this mean that the Cary/Rothschild sheets are then adaptations of the Marseille pattern, and not the earlier/original cards?
If the Italians did indeed adopt the tarot from the Occitanians, does this mean that the Cary/Rothschild sheets are then adaptations of the Marseille pattern, and not the earlier/original cards?
Sophie
Huck said:
As I said, it is speculation! I know a fair bit about Occitan and Provençal culture of the middle ages, and the little I know about tarot make them very compatible - but I need to study the TdM and earlier decks a great deal more to make up my mind. I was free-associating, as I hope was apparent, but not entirely in a fanciful way. I think there is a case to be made. However I'm with you one this: the earliest decks of cards were almost certainly Italian.
