Further Thoughts on TdM Pips

Sherryl

In my case, it's more about trying to step back from the pervasive Golden Dawn model and the "canned story" imagery of the scenic pips. I'm not looking for the path of least resistance, but rather a reliable path through the thicket.

I'm afraid I'm guilty of sounding dogmatic about not using esoteric correspondences and other external attributions like numerology. But Barleywine described my motivation quite well. I'm trying to strip away all the overlays from esotericism, Waite, etc. and get to the truth of each card as I see it, which will be different from anyone else's truth. This is why, on my website, and in the book I'm writing, I don't give card meanings. I offer a process that will help you arrive at your own card meanings.
 

Richard

......It does seem, though, that the cards other than the trumps were never intended to bear the philosophical weight we insist on loading them up with.......

That is in accord with A. E. Waite's view of the pips. While the images of the RWS are not inconsistent with Mathers' interpretation of the astrological decans of the Picatrix, Waite's suggested divinatory meanings in PKT are all over the map. However, he makes it clear that intuition is a more reliable guide for those who have the requisite psychic ability.

While the decans provide a mathematically simple system of attributions for the pips, I have never been totally convinced that the structure imposed on the minors by the decans is required in order for them to be consistently used in conjunction with the trumps.

Numbers (and therefore numerology) are another matter, since the most prominent characteristic of the pips is that they pictorially represent numbers, even to those who are too illiterate to read numerals. (My mind is incapable of attributing any divinatory significance to the floral embellishments.)
 

Richard

Actually, in France, and to some extent in Italy, they use only the trumps for divination. Most how-to-read books in French only deal with the trumps. Enrique Enriquez and a few other TdM teachers in the USA either read only with the trumps, or suggest that beginners start with just the trumps, as the pips are seen as more difficult. I disagree. This seems to be a mental wall put up by people who can't imagine reading without images as a crutch.
Indeed, numbers are full of meaning. Waite is responsible for introducing the crutch of scenic minors. Although the titles (aka "keywords") of Mathers' Golden Dawn tarot pips probably inspired Waite's use of scenic interpretations, to this day the Golden Dawn decks still use non scenic pips. (I view the Sola Busca as an anomaly in the history of tarot. I know of no one who regularly uses this curious deck.)
 

dancing_moon

Ever since you posted this discussion, I've been trying to figure out exactly how I read the pips. :D I'd like to share a few things I've observed, as much for the sake of clearing them up in my head as for their possible usefulness to anyone.

Watching my readings, I've noticed that I combine the pips-as-trumps method with some visual cues, and both movement and mood play a big role in those. Colors do too, but they're often not as pronounced/different as in modern decks, that's why I don't specifically watch for them.

Overall, TdM pips are definitely neither static nor expressionless to me, and I often find that details in cards remind me of real-life objects and situations that illustrate, clarify and deepen the otherwise seemingly 'dry' pips-as-trumps constructions. In addition, it's very important for me to see the other cards in the spread, so I usually draw a minimum of 3 cards or even 2-3 cards per position of a spread.

I took 3 of Swords as an example and tried to document my thinking as concisely as I could.

db_GRI-_Schwerter_031.jpg


The card shows a single Sword (usually different in color and shape from the other two) piercing through the other Swords. The two Swords crossing each other twice actually look like an egg or a shell to me, and the third Sword is definitely moving to break it.

In a reading, this could be seen as either constructive (the third Sword is freeing itself from the limiting knot-work of the two Swords, not unlike a chick hatching from an egg or Alexander cutting the Gordian Knot) or destructive (the third Sword disrupts the agreement and balance of the other two Swords). The latter meaning also echoes the 'threesome/love triangle' interpretation that is commonly associated with 3s.

The crossed laurel branches behind the single Sword emphasize the feeling of growth, creativity, and victory about this card, which also ties it with the Empress. (Note that I say 'feeling' here because the laurel branches do invoke a feeling first, not a thought like 'well, here's a laurel branch - what is it traditionally a symbol of?' :rolleyes:). However, this victory could also be devastating for either side (since victory implies losers), especially in the case of the destructive/betrayal/cheating scenario.

Note how, without any other cards, it's difficult to say whether this card is 'good' or 'bad': it shows a general 'principle' which will be made more concrete with a concrete question in mind and other cards in the spread. However, the energy of Swords is usually sharp and aggressive, so whichever it is, it won't be easy or comforting.

Hope this little example is helpful. It certainly was fun to write, anyhow. :D
 

Barleywine

Ever since you posted this discussion, I've been trying to figure out exactly how I read the pips. :D I'd like to share a few things I've observed, as much for the sake of clearing them up in my head as for their possible usefulness to anyone.

Watching my readings, I've noticed that I combine the pips-as-trumps method with some visual cues, and both movement and mood play a big role in those. Colors do too, but they're often not as pronounced/different as in modern decks, that's why I don't specifically watch for them.

Overall, TdM pips are definitely neither static nor expressionless to me, and I often find that details in cards remind me of real-life objects and situations that illustrate, clarify and deepen the otherwise seemingly 'dry' pips-as-trumps constructions. In addition, it's very important for me to see the other cards in the spread, so I usually draw a minimum of 3 cards or even 2-3 cards per position of a spread.

I took 3 of Swords as an example and tried to document my thinking as concisely as I could.

db_GRI-_Schwerter_031.jpg


The card shows a single Sword (usually different in color and shape from the other two) piercing through the other Swords. The two Swords crossing each other twice actually look like an egg or a shell to me, and the third Sword is definitely moving to break it.

In a reading, this could be seen as either constructive (the third Sword is freeing itself from the limiting knot-work of the two Swords, not unlike a chick hatching from an egg or Alexander cutting the Gordian Knot) or destructive (the third Sword disrupts the agreement and balance of the other two Swords). The latter meaning also echoes the 'threesome/love triangle' interpretation that is commonly associated with 3s.

The crossed laurel branches behind the single Sword emphasize the feeling of growth, creativity, and victory about this card, which also ties it with the Empress. (Note that I say 'feeling' here because the laurel branches do invoke a feeling first, not a thought like 'well, here's a laurel branch - what is it traditionally a symbol of?' :rolleyes:). However, this victory could also be devastating for either side (since victory implies losers), especially in the case of the destructive/betrayal/cheating scenario.

Note how, without any other cards, it's difficult to say whether this card is 'good' or 'bad': it shows a general 'principle' which will be made more concrete with a concrete question in mind and other cards in the spread. However, the energy of Swords is usually sharp and aggressive, so whichever it is, it won't be easy or comforting.

Hope this little example is helpful. It certainly was fun to write, anyhow. :D

Thanks for this, it is helpful. A couple of weeks ago I laid out all of the "pip" cards in the "pips-as-Trumps" array and looked them over as a group. I noted that most of the Swords have an "encircling" or "enclosing" nature while the Batons are more rigid or "lattice-like." The Coins and Cups are a mixed bag, with the Coins having more cards with a "central" or "inner" element, while the Cups are for the most part depicted in a more linear, matrix-like way. I also noticed that only two cards among all the pips don't have some kind of flowers, leaves or branches on them. Some are symmetrical in their arrangement and others have anomalies. I'm re-reading Yoav Ben-Dov's book and thinking about the idea that "everything is a sign." As long as it's visible on the card and not "glommed on" through correspondence or association, I think I can work my way deeper into this concept without getting too minutely iterative about it.
 

Sherryl

The card shows a single Sword (usually different in color and shape from the other two) piercing through the other Swords. The two Swords crossing each other twice actually look like an egg or a shell to me, and the third Sword is definitely moving to break it.

In a reading, this could be seen as either constructive (the third Sword is freeing itself from the limiting knot-work of the two Swords, not unlike a chick hatching from an egg or Alexander cutting the Gordian Knot) or destructive (the third Sword disrupts the agreement and balance of the other two Swords). The latter meaning also echoes the 'threesome/love triangle' interpretation that is commonly associated with 3s.

The crossed laurel branches behind the single Sword emphasize the feeling of growth, creativity, and victory about this card, which also ties it with the Empress. (Note that I say 'feeling' here because the laurel branches do invoke a feeling first, not a thought like 'well, here's a laurel branch - what is it traditionally a symbol of?' :rolleyes:). However, this victory could also be devastating for either side (since victory implies losers), especially in the case of the destructive/betrayal/cheating scenario.

Note how, without any other cards, it's difficult to say whether this card is 'good' or 'bad': it shows a general 'principle' which will be made more concrete with a concrete question in mind and other cards in the spread. However, the energy of Swords is usually sharp and aggressive, so whichever it is, it won't be easy or comforting.

Dancing Moon, this is brilliant. It feels like you're relating to the card as a living entity (which I think they are). I liked your image of a chick hatching from an egg. I often see the 2 of Swords as an eggshell, or soap bubble gently enclosing something. In the 3 of Swords whatever was enclosed is tired of being confined and is striving to break out. It will find some sort of resolution in the 4 of Swords, either a new plateau or a new trap that the 5 of Swords will have to break out of.
 

Barleywine

There also appears to be a very sexual, generative implication to this 3 of Swords - lingam/yoni symbolism (even though it's not something I usually associate with Swords).