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Etteilla & Kabbalah

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ross G Caldwell View Post
The chart at the back of Wirth's Le Tarot des imagiers du Moyen Age (the French edition; I can't find it in the most recent Weiser reprint) begins with Etteilla's correspondences, which match Christine's except that it omits the three elements (those spaces are simply left blank in Wirth's list).
Thanks Ross, just checked in my own edition - back page pull out correspondances astrologiques du tarot selon differents auteurs (I see they list the Sepher Ietzirah correspondences according to the chaldean order - in accordance with the oldest versions of the SY (short, long and Saadya)).

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My edition has cancer instead of Pisces (poissons) against XIX (cancer at VIII as well) - safe to presume that is a missprint...)
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Originally Posted by kwaw View Post
Thanks GTC - is the information there in the currently available (online) ark letters? I have found some general information - but nothing demonstrable.
Due to the way that Christine writes, the information in the Ark Letters isn't specifically designed to defend the correspondances, that is something that hasn't been given as far as sources. The GRA commission is supposed to be A.D. because as you know the Gra attributions weren't available at that time.

What i'd suggest because , her work wasn't supposed to be definitive but postulates on "alternate" ways to work and view tarot changes , is to E-Mail her and ask the questions yourself. She is quite approchable.

I can ask but our calls are not focused upon so much as tarot history, which I assure you she is an expert on, but that of practice and confluence. I accept the chart as valid, and the critical examination of it might prove more rewarding to a historian, im more in the line of Hermenutics of the Tarot and Iconography not particulary validating history and tying back some of the "particulars" of origins.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GnosticTarotCards View Post
Due to the way that Christine writes, the information in the Ark Letters isn't specifically designed to defend the correspondances, that is something that hasn't been given as far as sources. The GRA commission is supposed to be A.D. because as you know the Gra attributions weren't available at that time.

What i'd suggest because , her work wasn't supposed to be definitive but postulates on "alternate" ways to work and view tarot changes , is to E-Mail her and ask the questions yourself. She is quite approchable.

I can ask but our calls are not focused upon so much as tarot history, which I assure you she is an expert on, but that of practice and confluence. I accept the chart as valid, and the critical examination of it might prove more rewarding to a historian, im more in the line of Hermenutics of the Tarot and Iconography not particulary validating history and tying back some of the "particulars" of origins.
Thanks GTC - I assume it is as I suspected then purely 'conjectoral' rather than 'demonstrable' history... (based upon the conjectural application of Etteilla to the TdM by Papus perhaps).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
Do I detect just the slightest hint of sarcasm?

In any case, has her companion book for the Holy Light finally come out yet? I would love to get her deck, but being so used to pepsi-cola GD attributions, the lack of a book is the only factor keeping me from buying it. I have no doubt it would explain much.
The term 'astroalphanumerically high degrees' was a bit facetuous I admit, but the appeal to secret traditions in Continental Masonry really turn me off big time. I am not saying that a secret tradition may not exist, but reference to such things nowadays, particularly with reference to a Tarot deck intended for popular consumption, is really in bad taste. The thing with Waite and Crowley was bad enough. A repetition of those misadventures is very unwelcome. As it turns out, it seems that the correlations to which kwaw referred have no firm historical basis.

I have always had the suspicion that since Aleph = 1, Beth = 2,..., Yod = 10, then some dunderhead reasoned that, logically, there is no reason not to take Kaf = 11, Lamed = 12, etc. To add insult to injury, the crunch finally came with the Fool, who has no number, to whom was assigned the number 22 (or 21 according to Levi). The GD utilized the algebraic isomorphism between the alphabet and the Trumps, but tossed out the fact that Aleph through Yod represent the numerals 1 through 10, since the rest of the alphabet does not work analogously.

I respect GTC's appreciation of the persuasiveness of the confluence of various esoteric traditions (and I think logical and mathematical elegance also enter into the mix), but I have to be shown, or else I remain skeptical. I do not believe that Golden Dawn has the final word on the structure of reality, but I think it has stood the test of time. Not only that, but apparently many GD and Thelemic Adepts readily admit that there are other ways which also lead to the top of the metaphorical mountain. As for believing, I had enough of that approach, coping with a rather lenient, liberal Christian upbringing, which I was forced to reject on logical grounds. It just didn't make any sense at all, so my 'God-given' brain had to reject it.

I am amazed by the emphasis on believing in the divinatory forums, especially since there is a tendency among fortune tellers to reject not only belief-based religions, but even occultism. A common superstition over there is that a Tarot deck is sentient. However, that's neither here nor there, I suppose.
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Yes, I completely agree, and the GD, like others before it, made the same mistake of shrouding wisdom on one hand and democratizing a perverse version of it on the other. Crowley was not immune either, but even if he had had no other achievements, blowing the lid off the GD and ushering in the modern occult era was the best thing that could have happened. I have the greatest respect for Waite, but although he would probably have wished people would use his deck and book as a doorway into the mysteries and go further, there is no doubt he is one of the greatest contributors to the shallowest of New Age exotericism, which is one of the greatest shames of modern times.

While Kaf being "11" irks, Tarot as a K(Q)ab(b)al(l)istic (sorry, couldn't resist!) teaching tool is unparalleled, in my view and although there are discrepancies, the GD, as you said, did it most elegantly, and I am constantly discovering more and more just how much. One could argue the GD's Qabalah isn't Qabalah at all, but something quite different, and anyone who would make such an argument would be simultaneously very right and very wrong.
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I think that the 22 Trumps correlate just fine with the Hebrew alphabet, but it is not because Aleph = 1, Beth = 2, etc., it is because the natural mathematical ordering of the Trumps from the Fool to the World correlate well with the natural alphabetical ordering of the letters Aleph through Tau.

The fact that Aleph through Yod represent the numbers one through ten is irrelevant. Those who insist that the Magus I is Aleph, Priestess II is Beth, etc. have been deluded into (perhaps unconsciously) thinking that the letters Aleph through Tau somehow represent the numbers one through twenty-two, which, of course, they do not.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by closrapexa View Post
K(Q)ab(b)al(l)istic (sorry, couldn't resist!)
You missed out C !

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GnosticTarotCards View Post
I accept the chart as valid, and the critical examination of it might prove more rewarding to a historian...
Here for example are zodiacal, planetary and elemental attributions Etteilla makes himself (with corresponding TdM cards and Hebrew letters):

1.IDEAL V.POPE [Aries - He]
2.ENLIGHTENMENT XIX.SUN [Taurus - Vau] (Fire - Shin)
3.DISCUSSION XVIII.MOON [Gemini-Zain] (Water - Mem)
4.REVELATION XVII.STAR [Cancer-Cheth] (Air - Alef)
5.VOYAGE XXI.WORLD [Leo-Teth] (Earth)
6.SECRETS III.EMPRESS [Virgo - Yod]
7.SUPPORT IV.EMPEROR [Libra-Lamed]
8.TENACITY III.POPESSE [Scorpio-Nun]
9.JUSTICE VIII.JUSTICE [Sagittarius-Samekh]
10.TEMPERANCE XIV.TEMPERANCE [Capricorn-Ayin]
11.STRENGTH XI.STRENGTH [Aquarius-Tzaddi]
12.PRUDENCE XII.HANGED MAN [Pisces-Qof]
Ace Coins Ace Coins Sun Single*
Two Coins Two Coins Mercury Single
Three Coins Three Coins Venus Single
Four Coins Four Coins Moon Single
Five Coins Five Coins Mars Single
Six Coins Six Coins Jupiter Single
Seven Coins Seven Coins Saturn Single

How do these relate to the 'old alexandrian' AAN row? Are we to take them as 'blinds'? If so, what is the authority for any other attributions - The conjectures of Papus?

Other areas of confusion in the AAN chart:

1800 B.C for 1800 A.D (I have discussed the Gra with Christine before, she insists/persists along with Dr. Keizer (against all the facts) in referring to the Gra's as 'the oldest version' of the SY - so I suspect her dating here is intentional, linked to the legendary origins of the SY with Abraham - more an 'article of faith' than of history).

The Falconier follows the 'old alexandrian' if converted to TdM ordering, but might be worth adding a note that it changes the order of cards (it places the moon - la nuit- at the end. So the card numbers toward the end do not follow in sequence with hebrew lettering order (e.g., the 18th letter is attributed to the 22nd card).

The Curtiss's might be more accurately described as an English/American Theosophical tradition than a Spanish tradition (the order (same as the Gra) is first given in a lecture by Engish Theosophist Westcotte to the Theosophical Society and the Curtiss's were American Theosophists).

Crowley's elemental attributions (alef, mem, shin) have been replaced in the chart with the outer planets.

Kwaw
* Due to variations in planetary attributions, I have just used 'single' to refer to the seven planetary single letters.
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Tarot is a device that I use to "install" into my subconscious mind seed thoughts. these thoughts give order to my life and direction when im given challenges. The icons themselves are my historical milieu. where do the images change? why? and what does it mean in relation to the three great arms of trismegistus. the attributions of the GRA hold valid for me...

One of my favorite things about Etteilla is he puts antithetical names on the reverse of cards. this balances opposite forces and creates a great seed.

another thing our SY attributions come from the 3,7,12 of Aryeh Kaplan. that follows the order in genesis
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GnosticTarotCards View Post
.. the attributions of the GRA hold valid for me...
As they do for a great many people - they are part of modern day mainstream Jewish Kabbalah. No one is disputing their validity - I merely hold that they can be perfectly valid without the spurious authority of antiquity or faked history, and that his redaction does not negate the validity of others (either before or after his - despite the fact that much of his work was motivated by an agenda that was in part determined to undermine the validity of the Shabbataen kabbalistic model of Godhead).
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