Tarot/Kabbalah Connection (Another Thread)

Curtis Penfold

Greg Stanton said:
You know, there's suits in Mah Jong too, and the tiles are numbered 1-10. There's also four winds, three dragons, four seasons and four flowers. I'm sure a clever Qabbalist can come up with plenty of correspondences (which is what they do). Still doesn't prove Mah Jong was invented by a secret order attempting to preserve their sacred teachings for a future generation...
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It doesn't, but it could prove that, perhaps, spiritual numerology is a natural occurance. Some of it is historical, but perhaps, when we use the same number system (Arabic), we come up with similar ideas. We see a stableness in the number four or something like that.

I'm more comfortable saying that Kabbalah explains natural universal psychological tendancies more than it has somehow pushed itself into Occult symbolism found in everyday objects.

P.S.
Where is everybody? I wanted to see if there's any evidence supporting Kabbalah being connected to Tarot. So far, all the Tarot-Kabbalah believers are gone.
 

Greg Stanton

Curtis Penfold said:
It doesn't, but it could prove that, perhaps, spiritual numerology is a natural occurance. Some of it is historical, but perhaps, when we use the same number system (Arabic), we come up with similar ideas. We see a stableness in the number four or something like that.
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Human perception has a lot to do with it, and I'm not seeing much in the way of "spiritual" ideas in numerology, only humans expressing the way they see the world the best they can. We think in base 10, which is natural to our species. However, whoever or whatever designed the world didn't seem to be using the same system. A good chunk of nature, the way cell patterns are formed (both plant and animal), is based on the Golden Section -- which is not easily expressed with our numbers. The way humans perceive the world is quite different than how other species and spiritual beings see things. The Qabbalah and numerology are nifty philosophical expressions, but they are ultimately human creations that in reality may or may not relate to matters of the spirit.

So I think it's really up to the individual. You can choose to see a spiritual pattern or a pragmatic system in the Marseilles tarot. As far as why its creators planned it the way they did, we'll probably never know. Unless someone shows up here with a missing link (hint, hint people).

500 years from now, Lotería cards will be curious objects indeed. People will have devised all sorts of reasons why they are numbered as they are, and what the mysterious images could possibly mean. Some share titles with tarot (The Moon, The World), but most are unique. Special significance will be given to cards like The Flowerpot and The Watermelon...
 

Grigori

I think your asking the wrong question....

Curtis Penfold said:
P.S.
Where is everybody? I wanted to see if there's any evidence supporting Kabbalah being connected to Tarot. So far, all the Tarot-Kabbalah believers are gone.
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If you're wanting a discussion of the role kabbalah played in the formation of tarot, probably better to ask historians, and they seem pretty clear that there is no evidence. So not much else to say on that.

If you're asking if there is value in seeing tarot and kabbalah as connected, that's a different question, and history is not that relevant. As a "tarot-kabbalah believer", I consider historical evidence of a relationship in their original creation is irrelevant, as wherever the system comes from, it works for me when I shuffle the deck. And that's all that matters to me.

In order to decide if it will be of value to you, you are gonna have to purchase a deck and try it out :D
 

Curtis Penfold

similia said:
If you're asking if there is value in seeing tarot and kabbalah as connected, that's a different question, and history is not that relevant. As a "tarot-kabbalah believer", I consider historical evidence of a relationship in their original creation is irrelevant, as wherever the system comes from, it works for me when I shuffle the deck. And that's all that matters to me.

In order to decide if it will be of value to you, you are gonna have to purchase a deck and try it out :D
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Yeah...yeah.

Well, beyond that, Kabbalah confuses me quite a bit. There's a lot to remember! I've been trying to study it, but I don't think I quite have it down. I think it's cool how the Golden Dawn was able to apply it to a lot of things, but I find the whole thing to be rather complicated.
 

The crowned one

There are lots of theories, all made fit to form as far as I am concerned.

I see a lot of new age stuff tying it to the "Tree of Life" specifically.

If Eliphas Levi is our modern original link..well it is time for a second look.

Tarot and the Kabbalah are not a bad fit, same with musical notes, numerology, astrology and anything else you care to shoe horn in or take the time to make a fine fit..... I have no problem with the connection between Tarot and the Kabbalah as long as it is acknowledged as modern and new age as far as the DISCOVERY of the connection goes.

Tarot is not near as complex as it is made out to be. It is life's lessons and beliefs in 22 cards, and a game in 78. Like ANYTHING we can divine with it. What is unusual to some degree is the fact that much of tarot has been standardized to make the divination consistent between readers and that it works, more so in hindsight but often enough in foresight to really blow ones socks off on occasion.
 

sapienza

It's pretty clear that no-one can be absolutely sure of the true origins of tarot. Most tarot history is part fact and part speculation. I love tarot history but when it comes to working with tarot in our modern world I think those details begin to lose importance to some degree. What I love is that this deck of 78 cards has been able to captivate so many people for such a long period of time. What I also love is that people are able to use this deck of 78 cards to explore their own beliefs, esoteric or otherwise, and to gain insight and wisdom.

I guess I have a problem with the idea that any one 'system' is the only one that is accurate. I really think we can apply just about anything to Tarot. We see what we want to see. We see what has meaning for us. And just as we find meaning in a deck of cards, other people find meaning in different things. Some find meaning in the football statistics, others in the stockmarket, others in their DVD collections, and on it goes. I believe it's important to accept that any number of things can be connected in any number of different ways to create something meaninful to us as an individual. The danger is when we begin to believe that what is meaningful for us should be meaningful for everyone.

Tarot has meaning for me and despite being designed as a game, I believe it contains great wisdom, but I'm not going to be convinced in a hurry that it came as a fully developed esoteric system. That just doesn't fit for me.
 

gregory

Me neither. I like Robin Wood on the history thing:

..... no time to get the book out, but it runs something along the lines of "No-one knows where tarot originated. And it doesn't matter anyway."

Now don't get me wrong. For historians who get very excited about which fool image came first and so on - fine. But what is important about tarot to me is that it works. I have no idea why - but it does.

And what correspondences there may or may not be between this and that don't affect the way it works, where I am standing. I do not sit there and think OOOH - well, if it ties into Kabbalah that card must..... It is all interesting speculation - but more of an academic exercise, IMHO....
 

Yygdrasilian

synchronicity

KingofCups said:
One thing to keep in mind is that the ancient form of logic, as transmitted through the Sefer Yetzirah, Pythagoras, and Hermeticism, are really the source of all modern numerology and astrology, which are considered important aspects of the cards even by many people who know nothing about Qabalah or alchemy. You can choose to ignore this source and make up your own associations, but that is far from the spirit of the original system of thought, which is definitely a system with clear, discernible logic.
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very Yes.
A grasp of music theory is essential also - Qabalah & Tarot interface with such ease due to their mutual systems’ basis upon certain mathematical ‘facts’ concerning acoustics.
 
Basic question on double-letter/planet attributions How Kabbalah Is Used To Decode Our Own Life?