Ordering of Marseille Minors

Macavity

I don't think it's of great consequence but, since I often "order" my decks for study, I was just wondering if there was a correct or historic ordering for the Marseille minors. Playing with my new Arista Tarot, which numbers (sarcrilege!) the whole deck, I just note that it places the Court cards as: K, Q, Kt, P before the Ace - Ten. Noting that even Eteilla must have obtained his "backwards" sequencing from somewhere, I just started to wonder if there were various other traditions...

Macavity
 

Shalott

Weird. That's how I do it but I'm just going with what feels right. Comes from poker I think. :D

I've noticed that every Marseille deck has come brand new out of the box in different orders. Actually the Tiny Grimaud and the Dusserre Dodal had all the courts together at the back of their decks. I quickly put them all where I wanted them. :D
 

ihcoyc

In some versions of the Tarot game, certain suits play ace high and reverse numerical order, so the weakest card in that suit would be the King. This could get to be confusing.
 

Fulgour

my draw on the cut

Tarot, by degree of signification:
Ace King Queen Knight Page 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Tarocchi, by luck of the draw:
Ace King Queen Knight Page 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2
 

Fulgour

not a "trick" question:

We so often hear that the game of Tarocchi featured
Le Fol as the ultimate trump ~ even though (gasp) he
was unnumbered. None of this makes sense unless it's
like how kids play Chess... house rules and just for fun.

But what about our friend, Le Fol ~ by default he's #22,
and that actually would be the highest number anyway?!

And something so unfathomably obvious it's
mind boggling: What is that thing on his head!
A medieval food processor, feeding his sack...?
Grind a handle and out comes sausage meat:

LE FOL

The "dog" sure seems interested....
 

jmd

The value of the pips in certain forms of the game has, as mentioned by ihcoyc, variations, usually according to suit. Hence, the Ace to ten may be seen either as an order of increase of value, or of decrease of value, depending on its 'colour' (suit).

The 'correct' ordering, however, in terms of its symbolic or historic non-gaming aspect, seems to suggest the more common-sensical first pips, then Page through to King. Whether these are depicted in their descending (King → Page → 10 → Ace) or ascending (Ace → 10 → Page → King) does not alter their relative symbolic value.

In terms of various reflections which may be made from these, and the 'moral to be derived from the contemplation' of the ordering of the game versions (historically used), it seems quite suggestive if one reflects on the suits themselves as to whether the ordering is one of ascent or descent.

For the purposes of those who do not have access to the suit value (for the game version), the suits are thus structured (in order of least to highest value):
  • Bastons: Ace → ten
  • Coupes: ten → Ace
  • Deniers: ten → Ace
  • Espees: Ace → ten
What is here interesting, in terms of reflections, is that both Bastons and Swords do increase in value by being multiplied (the more swords one has at one's disposal, the greater the army; the more batons, the greater the crop or fields), but that the value of Cups and Coins stems from the ultimate single source: the One Holy Vessel in the case of the Cup, and the ultimate imprintature of the gold in the case of the coin (this last may be more difficult to sense into, but reflection on the value of one large gold coin as opposed to ten small ones may indicate what I mean).

With the Courts, and though they are arranged in suits, there is a sense that they refer to the servants of the implements... or at least their wielders. They are thus both superior to, but also subservient to, the pips.
 

Macavity

Thanks!

I've often felt there were echos of some such ordering, in modern decks (a term used vaguely!) in a general trend for divinatory meanings to get "worse" with increase of Wands/Swords (masculine) and "better" with increase of Cups/Disks (feminine). Also maybe suggesting a cyclic/circular structure... And prior to the various convolutions with astrology, qabalah etc. :)

Macavity
 

fyreflye

Re: Modern decks ordering

The Servants of the Light Tarot not only orders the minors as Weapons - Staves - Crescents - Cups but assembles the suits starting with the Prime [Ace], then the Court Cards and then the pips. In the SOL Staves are attributed to Air and Weapons to Fire. The standard order for other modern decks in the British occult tradition, based on the descending order of the Four Worlds of the Tree, is Wands - Cups - Swords - Disks with the Court Cards at the end of the suit.
As many of you know the Hadar Marseille deck, which is also based on the Four Worlds of the Tree, orders the suits Cups - Swords - Wands - Disks. My Hadar, which arrived just yesterday, was assembled completely out of order, with sections of suits mixed among sections of the Majors. At first I assumed it was factory error but when I read in the lwb that Hadar's method of cleansing the cards was to re-order them after each reading I wondered if the factory arrangement of the deck had been deliberate. Does anybody know?