The Four Worlds/The Four Suits - the Order

GnosticTarotCards

BRAVO! Thats the point exactly. The mythology recorded by human civilization has a definite theme. This is eaiser to grasp when you read it from a "natal chart" perspective. I use "humanistic astrology" as opposed to that which is "hoary" or just event based. Using astrological correspondance this way im able to better get in tune with appropraite times that the planetary bodies are available to do some work and help me toward the goal of GNOSIS. Like you so appropriately mentioned "aspects". The great things about aspects is they actually start to break down to Pythagorean mathmatics and geometrical shapes. this is profound! Its because we have this available reference that we can see later what Kabbalistic tree paths we are most in affinity with. Finally when all the correspondance is taken to heart then you can start to see these paths interconnect with life events. Hod to Netzach or whatever. That path relates to two minor arcana and one major. That trinitarian view of the Two Extremes and the Major integrating path in the center is .. (Here is my word again) PROFOUND. The implications of this method are amazing. Then translated in occult or kabbalistic reference will keep you focused upon the goal "crystalization in the heart" or Tiferet, then you can advance to the next phase of development

In GNOSIS

Tim
 

ravenest

And double bravo on you post!

BRAVO! That’s the point exactly. The mythology recorded by human civilization has a definite theme. This is easier to grasp when you read it from a "natal chart" perspective. I use "humanistic astrology"

:thumbsup:

as opposed to that which is "hoary" or just event based. Using astrological correspondence this way I’m able to better get in tune with appropriate times that the planetary bodies are available to do some work and help me toward the goal of GNOSIS. Like you so appropriately mentioned "aspects". The great things about aspects is they actually start to break down to Pythagorean mathematics and geometrical shapes. this is profound! It’s because we have this available reference that we can see later what Kabbalistic tree paths we are most in affinity with.

YES! When the general pattern (for all of us) is understood we can see (by adaptation of that pattern with a relevant 'modulation' pattern) how our individuality best matches the overall pattern in areas of 'affinity' and also areas of weakness that we either need to strengthen or take a variant path ... sometimes, due to our 'affinities' we can take a straight path, at other times the straight path is 'blocked', but there are other strong paths leading to it by different routes.

E.g. I have many good aspects with Neptune - a great helper, due to placements it has a good influence with the other helpers/planets so I have a variety of choices to access that energy.

I better not go on too much about personal astrological complexities here.

BUT another example of taking a variant path is; I had to learn a lot of 777 correspondences for an exam and had no idea how I would do it. It wasn’t working ... I can’t learn from tables and figures ... had endless trouble at school with multiplication tables (and spelling ;)) ... but then I realised I could learn the correspondences by relating all of them to a tarot card, an artistic visual complex symbol system that activates the unconscious processing. In no time at all I was learning them and I passed the examination without a problem.

Some of us find it hard to learn ... the info goes in but the bell doesn’t ring. The Sufi's call it 'Learning how to learn'.

Finally when all the correspondence is taken to heart then you can start to see these paths interconnect with life events. Hod to Netzach or whatever. That path relates to two minor arcana and one major. That trinitarian view of the Two Extremes and the Major integrating path in the centre is.. (Here is my word again) PROFOUND.

You just rang my bell! OF COURSE!

I love it when people do that; there has been something I have been missing, someone makes a comment or statement and :lightbulb: - 'How could I have missed that?

I have been listing trinitarian concepts and their extension into 4

[ http://homeland-foundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Photon-3.pdf

‘SYSTEMS AND MAPS OF NUMBER’ article … about half way through the magazine.]

and I totally missed that one. Thank you!



The implications of this method are amazing.

Yes! I have been working on a system to incorporate the 3 outer planets but use a variant 'tree' to the tree of life that for me better utilises astrology, outer planets and psychological mapping.

see http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=187887 post #6 onwards

I connect the 'helpers'/planets with certain lines and for each natal expression I draw the aspect lines in a colour between them (e.g. a red path for a square, a blue for a trine and so on, when one looks at the whole diagram it can be seen where a difficult direct path might be and so a variant root - maybe via one or two other planets) can get you to access the energy.

Then translated in occult or Kabbalistic reference will keep you focused upon the goal "crystallization in the heart" or Tiferet, then you can advance to the next phase of development

In GNOSIS

Tim

Yes. The way my system is working out is to get those basic 'Id' psychological drives (inner planets with Mars Venus as the base line) fed balanced and modulated by Mercury ( messenger of the Sun and delver -psychopomp - into the underworld ) - the lower trinitarian concept, with the Moon in the centre (C.I.C.T. - see Crowley’s Rite of Jupiter ... and the Wheel tarot card ;) ) relaying the experiential energy 'up' to the solar centre. while the solar centre relays the energy of 'outer helpers' outer planets and cosmic connections, archetypal patterns and 'collective super-conscious (ego)' (symbolised by MAAT in Egyptian concepts) energies flowing 'down' via the solar centre. This helps to create a stronger Moon conjoined sun consciousness where the 'Id' is modulated by the 'Superego' to assist stages of ego development.
 

GnosticTarotCards

Greetings

I dont actually use crowley, but the four suits and four worlds are not specific to any tradition. it depends upon what system unfolds for the practitioner. I personally use Continental attributions from the Kabbalistic - Sefer Yetzeriah. the 3 mothers that are crossbars, 7 doubles that are verticles, 12 elemental letters that represent diagonals and the zodiac signs. for me that straightens out the numbers as well on Tarot. each number represents a Seferiot.

as for the four worlds, there is Atzulith, Briah, Yetzeriah and Assaiah. thats just the start. each suit represents a world... in Continental Tradition its Air,Fire,Water and Earth. For me this frame of Kabbalah is essential and extremely simple. when you get out your cards and place them this way.. then the four worlds will start to reveal themselves in this arrangement

Meditate upon your arrangement and see whats right. its surprising how exact the cards will force us to think. for the rest of Kabbalah... well thats another post :)
 

Richard

......I dont actually use crowley, but the four suits and four worlds are not specific to any tradition. it depends upon what system unfolds for the practitioner. I personally use Continental attributions from the Kabbalistic - Sefer Yetzeriah. the 3 mothers that are crossbars, 7 doubles that are verticles, 12 elemental letters that represent diagonals and the zodiac signs. for me that straightens out the numbers as well on Tarot. each number represents a Seferiot......
That is certainly elegant! Would I be correct in assuming that these attributions are implicit in Christine Payne-Towler's Holy Light Tarot? That would represent a significant deviation from Golden Dawn and Thoth.
 

treedog

mothers, doubles, etc...

That is certainly elegant! Would I be correct in assuming that these attributions are implicit in Christine Payne-Towler's Holy Light Tarot? That would represent a significant deviation from Golden Dawn and Thoth.

Thanks for making that comment. I'm really new to this and was/am confused. I went to my reference book and "the Mothers" are not crossbars as far as I can tell. Perhaps in another "world"?

I don't have anything to add to the last several posts, but I find it very interesting to sit at this table.
 

Richard

Thanks for making that comment. I'm really new to this and was/am confused. I went to my reference book and "the Mothers" are not crossbars as far as I can tell. Perhaps in another "world"?

I don't have anything to add to the last several posts, but I find it very interesting to sit at this table.

In the Golden Dawn version (shared by Thoth), the Mothers are Paths 11 (diagonal, Aleph), 23 (vertical, Mem), and 31 (diagonal, Shin). None of the Mothers are horizontal crossbars. The crossbars are Dalet (Double), Tet (Simple), and Peh (Double), no Mothers. My humble opinion as a fellow novice is that it is best to learn the more common Golden Dawn attributions before considering alternatives.
 

GnosticTarotCards

I am not familiar why Golden Dawn - Esque groups place the cards in those positions. Is it Sefer Yetzeriah? Im familiar with ancient Kabbalah not the modernized version. Maybe thats what your cards point to. Do they work well with Alchemy and Astrology? Since the original Hermetists were Kabbalists they wouldn't have been using Kircher's modernized Tree of Life that Golden Dawn has used. They (meaning 15-18th century magi) would have used the Authentic Greek or Hebrew Sefer Yetzeriah correspondance. Since thats where the paths originate.

Good luck in using the tarot in Kabbalah with GD, it doesn't work for me ;)
 

Richard

I am not familiar why Golden Dawn - Esque groups place the cards in those positions. Is it Sefer Yetzeriah? Im familiar with ancient Kabbalah not the modernized version. Maybe thats what your cards point to. Do they work well with Alchemy and Astrology? Since the original Hermetists were Kabbalists they wouldn't have been using Kircher's modernized Tree of Life that Golden Dawn has used. They (meaning 15-18th century magi) would have used the Authentic Greek or Hebrew Sefer Yetzeriah correspondance. Since thats where the paths originate.

Good luck in using the tarot in Kabbalah with GD, it doesn't work for me ;)
If you wish to use the Arizal attributions or any other, that's your business. My original question was simply whether those attributions are used by the Holy Light deck. I thought perhaps you would know, since you say that is your favorite deck. You are welcome to debate the authenticity of various Tree of Life versions with the antiquarians. That is not my interest.

I was, however, glad to be of assistance to someone who is trying to learn the Golden Dawn attributions, regardless of whether they are relatively recent or of hoary antiquity (which apparently automatically qualifies them as being correct :p).

So, does Holy Light use the horizontal, vertical, diagonal arrangement of the Mother, Double, and Simple letters?
 

GnosticTarotCards

Tarot of The Holy Light was created by Christine Payne-Towler. She is my teacher, the attributions that work best with that deck are Astrological ones. If you like to use Kabbalah with THL then yes you would be quite at home using the 3,7,12 SY Correspondances to the paths. However I would not say Kabbalah is implicit per se with the THL, The Alchemy is though as you will see, and Alchemists were definately Kabbalists, so in a very stucture within structure, within yet another structure (Kabbalah, Alchemy ,Astrolology) The THL promotes the 3,7,12 order within its Alchemical Core.

In GNOSIS

Tim
 

rachelcat

I hope it's not too much (from both tech and copyright angles), but I wanted to post the attached for the folks in this thread.

I first came across the

3 mother letters/elements=3 horizontal paths
7 double letters/planets=7 vertical paths
12 single letters/signs = 12 slanted paths

idea in The Complete Magician's Tables by Stephen Skinner. And it sure got me thinking. I haven't come to any conclusions yet, but it's been brewing in my mind for a while . . .
 

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