High Priestess: Boaz, Jachin, Torah etc

KingofCups

Abrac said:
I would say the use of the Tora here is a reference to Kabalah, but Waite was very vocal about his view that the Tarot has nothing to do with Kabalah.

The thing is, you can't take much of what any of the Golden Dawn people say about the tarot in a public forum at face value (especially Crowley) because they were actively trying to conceal what it was they were doing with it. Paul Foster Case came the closest to letting the cat out of the bag and revealed some important blinds, and for that, he was expelled from the order.

Waite himself put enough Tree of Life diagrams into his own deck that it should be obvious that he did think there was a connection. These can be found on the curtains behind the High Priestess, the King of Swords, and the Queen of Wands, and most overtly of all on the ten of Pentacles.
 

Abrac

Back when I posted that my understanding of Waite's position wasn't very clear. In the Pictorial Key he wrote that he believed Tarot wasn't derived from Kabalism, or any other system in particular, but it's clear he associated the Kabalah with Tarot.

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. :)
 

Teheuti

Abrac said:
Back when I posted that my understanding of Waite's position wasn't very clear. In the Pictorial Key he wrote that he believed Tarot wasn't derived from Kabalism, or any other system in particular, but it's clear he associated the Kabalah with Tarot.
Good distinction.

Waite struggled with the GD Tree of Life / Tarot correspondences. Nevertheless, he used them with his own Fellowship, but changed them quite radically when he later created the Trinick Majors for the Holy Order of the Golden Dawn. He seemed more comfortable with the astrological associations although he didn't stress them but the link is subtly made in some of the cards.
 

KingofCups

Ah, the beauties of a disjointed years-long discussion! I hadn't even looked at the date this post was started and just assumed since it was on the front page that it was recent.

Anyhow, yes, it is an important distinction between deriving from/associated with. To me though, the question of the origins of the cards matter little in this regard because the fact of the matter is that the deck as it stands is a perfect format for an association with Qabalah, so using it as a visual aid for the study of it just makes sense.
 

Peredur

Templar influence in Freemasonry

Just for the record: 1) There is no hard evidence of any direct connection between Freemasonry and the Knights Templar. 2) There is no documented proof that they excavated on the site of Solomon's Temple or found anything of importance there. 3) Rosslyn Chapel has no proven Templar or Masonic association. 4) Templar use of the tarot is speculation and nothing more. 5) Masonic ritual is allegorical and not historical fact. 6) I read non-fiction (just like Widow's Son).
 

Sophie

Peredur said:
Just for the record: 1) There is no hard evidence of any direct connection between Freemasonry and the Knights Templar.
But there is plenty of evidence against a direct link, as the Templars were broken up in the early 14th century, and the Freemasons are not attested before the 18th Century (they might have been older, but nobody - including their own historians - has found evidence for that). Their inspiration was the corporations of the Middle Ages that built the Cathedrals and had elaborate spiritual initiations - and in particular, the spiritual idea that the corporations of masons saw themselves as the inheritors of the builders of Solomon's Temple. Freemasons adopted that ideal for themselves, not in a practical, but metaphorical, way. That's not to say that the romance and ideals of the Templars - who saw themselves as servants of the heavenly Temple of Solomon - didn't captivate masonic lodges - it did. Because there were close associations, in the Middle Ages, between the Templars and the builders' corporations, and in particular masons (the Templars commissioned many churches), there will have been some indirect associations with the Freemasons. But since it's not been possible to create an unbroken line between the first Freemasonry lodges in the 18th century and the much earlier masons' corporations - indeed, Freemasons in their early days seem to have been mostly members of the gentry! - the direct link with the Templars is moot. By the time the first Freemasons' lodges appeared, the power and influence of the mediaeval corporations had waned.

4) Templar use of the tarot is speculation and nothing more.
Actually, it's impossible, since the Templars were disbanded - as an order - in 1311, by Papal order: thereafter there was no official order of the Templars (it is highly unlikely that the Portuguese and the Spaniards would have endorsed an order disbanded by the Pope). Of course, individual Templars lived on, and some might well have gathered together informally or written to each other until the last ones died. The tarot was not invented until more than a century later.

However, much of the imagery of the trumps would have been very familiar to anyone involved in churches - as the Templars were - since it is mainstream Christian imagery. Some of that imagery's esoteric associations (not the ones we make today, but those made in the Middle Ages) would probably have been known - and even explored - by the Templars, who had some elaborate initiations and teachings (as well as being soldiers, bankers and church-builders ;)). A more logical speculation than having the Templars use the tarot would see them writing to each other - after their order had been disbanded - and sketching well-known symbols, some of those same symbols that later also found their way on tarot cards - as a means of recognition, or maybe as solace. But all of these symbols were known and indeed, many of them were openly displayed in churches. Their esoteric meaning could only be discovered by someone who had done the spiritual work on them. Much as what happens in pathworking today :)
 

Αρσιησισ

Esoterically, also, the image of the High Priestess is that of the Yoni: Her robe the labia, the Pearl in Her Crown the clitoris, & the drape of Her robe the Waters that flow from Her to irrigate the rest of the Keys. The Veil behind her is the hymen. It signifies the Virgin Mystery that has not been rent, represented also by the waxing crescent moon at Her feet.

729
 

nisaba

Αρσιησισ said:
represented also by the waxing crescent moon at Her feet.
Interesting.

How do you know whether it is waxing or waning? I really can't tell, from the illustration. The waning Crescent is more an HPS-type Moon, to, me, the descent into darkness, inner contemplation and deep wisdom.
 

GRAFLIX1

Hi Priestess

Hi, Liz C

(I've done a bit of internet research on some of the symbolism in the RWS High Priestess card, and as a result...)

What you find, in regards to the High Priestess, is "modern-man's" interpretation toward the symbology imposed on a character, harking from the Egyptian realm.

This Egyptian female, Seshat, (to which I have come to believe, is really the constellation of Ursa Minor, and the cohort of the Magician) was said to possess knowledge of the "LAWS" (hence the held scroll).

Some of these laws are astral.

Having this knowledge of the stars, it is her, then, that stretches the "cord" with the King.

The name eludes me, however, a Latin term, relating to a building harbouring books (not library) comes close to Seshat's Westernized name.

Don't put too much emphasis on "Christian" history. The victor writes their own interpretation and choose, at times, to hide/suppress the truth.
 

Bernice

"Sesheta:

Said to be the wife or sometimes the daughter of Thoth she is also reputed to have been the one to invent writing. As her priesthood was latterly taken over by the priests of Thoth the 'daughter' designation is unlikely to have been wholly accepted, but in either case he absorbed her attributes and eventually overshadowed her.

A Goddess of writing, letters, historical records, inventories & archives she was also registrar of the royal succession and recorded the life-span of the reigning pharaoh. Mathematics also came under her jurisdiction - in a ritual called 'the stretching of the cord' she assisted the pharaoh in marking out new temples. This involved both terrestrial and celestial maths (Astronomy)."



Interesting idea that the Priestess might be Sesheta, but she appears to be quite unacknowledged in the WMT. I think Waite was more orientated toward Isis, Orsiris & Thoth in the egyptian pantheon. I have never seen her hieroglyph in connection with the WMT.


Bee :)