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I believe that many of the cards in the Gay Tarot appear to be too specific because of the use of modern imagery. Without some of the esoteric allegorical symbols we see a scene that at first appears to be completely self explanatory and we have to sit with it for a moment before other interpretations surface.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shade
I believe that many of the cards in the Gay Tarot appear to be too specific because of the use of modern imagery. Without some of the esoteric allegorical symbols we see a scene that at first appears to be completely self explanatory and we have to sit with it for a moment before other interpretations surface.
Yes, but you can say that about any deck. You 'get used' to working with your own deck and it's particular symbols and then one day you open another deck and the first thing you will do is see which associations 'match' your thinking and which ones will 'stretch' you mind. I vote for the 'stretch your mind' approach myself. If an image conveys the idea, does it matter if the knight is holding a broadsword or a light sabre?
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Ok, I just read something and I'm sort of still processing it, so I'm sort of thinking out loud here...but...

I just read this thread: http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread...733#post524733

And it refers to the devil card in a way I had heard before, but never really thought about. I'm still new to this, I'm not familar with the older/original decks and their meanings. I also know that Carl Jung is not a tarot expert, But in that thread, there is a quote from Carl Jung;
“Now in the Tarot there is a hermaphroditic figure called the diable. That would be in alchemy the gold. In other words, such an attempt as the union of opposites appears to the Christian mentality as devilish, something evil which is not allowed, something belonging to black magic.”

Again, I don't know the history of the tarot, but if that is true...
and I know this is a weird tangent, but...

"union of opposites" ,is what heterosexuals think they have. They consider man and woman to be each other's opposite, and the romantic notion that they compliment each other because of that.
So, when the LWB says "unconsciously accepting societal norms" , could that mean accepting the notion that for a relationship to be balanced it has to have a male and female?

I'm probably not making sense...lol. It's just that I've heard people talk about "yin and yang" and male and female, as if you only have balance if you have a male and female. However in human beings, men and woman are not exact opposites. There is no such thing as being 100% male or 100% female. Men and woman can share many qualities. So...I'm thinking of the devil/self-hatred card now as a rejection of that notion. Which wouldn't actually make it 'self'-hatred. But since I'm having a hard time understanding this card, maybe I'll play with it for a while anyway, lol.

*still thinking*
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opposites


Hi VisionQuest,
I've been hunting around for info on the 7 Arcana and came upon this post.
Indeed, Jung was not an expert on the Tarot. He was however, when it comes to alchemy and the symbolic union of opposites. This union can be with anything that holds tension on two opposite poles. Two things that come together to form a third. Like the ocean and the beach (speaking in terms of Jungian belief) The water (unconscious - deep emotion) meets the earth (solid ground) and you have a new awareness growing within.
So opposites, yin and yang can be anthing..not just the male and female energy coming together. Even that is just symbolic in that you experience a male (active) energy which combines with female ( receptive) and a new idea (baby) is created. These are just symbols that are used to explain process.

I don't want to step on anyone's toe's here but it seems to me that if someone is brave enought to step out of the cultural norms, this is when the unconscious belief of these norms rears it's devilish head. Here,you have two opposites to contend with. That is to say - to follow your heart will be the opposite of what society teaches. I believe that self hatred is a learned thing - and can be unlearned by taking the brave steps towards the self with compassion and lack of judgement.

I strongly agree with the post about the angry father being the one who needs to change. Believing that we need to change as a way of adapting to this overpowering and dark energy ..is how self hatred begins.
just some thoughts.
Dancingdragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dancingdragon
I don't want to step on anyone's toe's here but it seems to me that if someone is brave enought to step out of the cultural norms, this is when the unconscious belief of these norms rears it's devilish head. Here,you have two opposites to contend with. That is to say - to follow your heart will be the opposite of what society teaches. I believe that self hatred is a learned thing - and can be unlearned by taking the brave steps towards the self with compassion and lack of judgement.
I think this is quite true and a perceptive observation about what this card is about.

Also, when looking at the card more universally, I think the Gay Tarot card could be looked at very simply. Like the Marseille/RWS Devil cards, it shows someone who is restricting themselves by obsessing or overly focusing on something, to their detriment. When doing a reading that is not necessarily about sexual orientation, we need to step back and look at the card more allegorically. After all, when reading with the RWS we do not assume that the Devil card means we are fated to be chained to a cement block on top of which sits a huge hairy monster.

-- Lee
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This is, I think, my favorite card in the Gay Tarot.

I am not gay; however, as a large person, I sometimes feel self-hatred because of my weight. This card resonated with me because of that.

I also think that we can hate a part of ourselves without hating ourselves in a general way. There are other parts of me that I think are just fine.

Sue
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Sorry, Sue, I only just read your post. I've just moved across the country and am a little disorganized.

I really appreciate your feeling that this card, and by extension the deck in general, can be applicable beyond the specific theme, i.e. gay men. In fact, I consider this is the highest praise, because this is what tarot means to me, the ability to apply specific images and situations to our own situations and questions.

I also like to imagine that by creating this deck, I've done my own little (very little) bit to help the cause of understanding in the world, to show people that the problems facing gay people are actually the problems facing people in general.

So your post makes me very happy!

-- Lee
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Lee --

I'm glad my post makes you happy. Your reply made me feel pretty good, too.

I think you did an excellent job helping the cause of understanding. I showed the deck to a friend of mine a week or so ago, especially highlighting the Self-Hatred card. I think for the first time she 'got it.' I also showed her the ten of cups, which I always call the 'happy family card' and explained that families now come in all kinds of formations...

Sue
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VisionQuest


“Now in the Tarot there is a hermaphroditic figure called the diable. That would be in alchemy the gold. In other words, such an attempt as the union of opposites appears to the Christian mentality as devilish, something evil which is not allowed, something belonging to black magic.”

I may be totally out of whack here. And perhaps this has been spoken of elsewhere. Many of my friends are gay - I deeply respect them.

Yes I truly believe this. Constantine reigned in Christianity. Before Christianity the world seemed to live in religious harmony.

Homosexuality was practised in ancient Babylonian and in Egypt, the first civilized men! Among the Greeks it was a natural expression and thought to be more genuine and tender than heterosexual love. The Romans practised it too.

Some of the famous homosexuals of the world were Socrates, Plato, Sappho, Pindar, Julius Caesar, to name just a few! And what of the Italian Renaissance and the great men such as Da Vinci, and Michelangelo, Marlow and Shakespeare. And Goethe, Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, the list goes on. There is very little known of our sexual history. Most ancient documents were destroyed.

Hate is generated by fear and when we are in the midst of it, we know there's an explosion coming. Do we run or face it head-on? The two greatest producers of fear are change and uncertainty.




tink
p.s. how do I put things in a quote? I'm very new at this.
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"Too Specific"


I initially thought a lot of the cards in the deck were "too specific" because they look different from my other decks, and some of the cards have different names. I found out after reading with it for a while that it was more a problem with my own memory. I couldn't connect the pictures in this deck with the pictures in the other decks I had, so they were tough for me to read.

What I did was I took all of the cards I was having trouble with and put them side-to-side with a Rider-Waite deck. I picked out everything I had been reading into the Tower and the Devil and realized I could just as easily apply them to Revelation and Self-Hatred if I actually wrapped my mind around it. They're actually not too specific for me anymore after doing this.

On a related note, I actually bought the deck based on seeing those two cards alone. They shook me from the first time I saw them, and shake me every time I see them again.
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