The importance of numbers attached to cards

Number-Less

Originally, Tarot decks had no numbers on the Majors. The addition of the numbers--which card gets which number, really depends on deck. For example, is the Fool 0 or 22? (Alpha or Omega?). The confusion over Strength and Justice is a late problem arriving with Rider-Waite. The earlier order had Justice at 8, Strength at 11. But Waite's religious order assigned the cards zodiac signs and, among other obscure reasons, Waite decided that one couldn't have Justice (Libra) come before Strength (Leo). So he switched them.

In the end, you have to decide for yourself if the numbers on the majors is a blessing or a curse; if you should use them...or go back to the days when the Majors were number-less. There's a lot of variation in numberology--in what number means what; it varies from country to country, culture to culture, and era to era. Very changable and flexable are the meanings of numbers. And if you get into ancient myths and religions, yikes! You get even more variables. I happen to be fascinated by such things but you can very quickly bury yourself in a lot of contridictory information if you're not careful.

If you're wondering why that number for that card, best to read up on what the creators were thinking. A lot of decks will explain--or they're going along with Rider-Waite or Thoth meanings.

IMO: The original Majors were not numbered. I believe the numbering of the majors is for sequencing purposes only. Numbers are the realm of the minors. I believe there is a reason that majors are not minors. When you get hung up on the numbers on the majors, you end up with apples and bananas...

Well, some consider the number of the card to be another aspect of the card which can be considered in the reading. There are many different ways of divining meaning from numbers:

1) kaballistic - -- the hebrew letters correspond to numbers, and the numbers correspond to places on the Tree of Life, places on a spiritual path.

Do a little reading on "gematria". Because Hebrew letters are also associated with numbers, over the centuries (there was no TV) Kaballists have enjoyed trying to decode the numbers in the Torah, matching words to numbers, and numbers to words, and finding which words are coincidentally connected to others having the same numerological value... Over the centuries, some of the number - word correlations may have become famous, and generally accepted. (maybe jmd has an example )

2) geometrical/dimensional (point vs. line vs. square vs. cube, versus multi-dimensional universe...); -- ask jmd to explain, LOL.

3) mythological/biblical/historical/literary (the number seven recalls the Seven Deadly sins, the Seven Veils of Salome, the Seven Days of the Week, or the Seven Pies of Bette's Bake Shoppe.

rcb30872 said:

Yes, I have to agree. But then when I did a thread on The Chariot, here
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=44721&page=1&pp=10
and then there was something said about that which I found rather confusing


I am not asking what the different numbers mean as such, even though it would nice to have some indication. What I am asking, why does there seem to be so emphasis/significance/importance placed on the numberings on the cards?

Bec

Click to expand...

The number and title are aspects of the cards symbolism as much as the image. In the example you gave of one of my posts you found confusing I was relating the symbolism of the number seven [number associated with wisdom, the charioteer of the virtues] to the image. I was also speculating in relation to the attribute of the number seven to the goddess of wisdom minerva, that maybe we could consider the possibility that the charioteer is a warrior maiden rather than a man, and what meaning we may possibly derive from the card if we consider the charioteer as Minerva; also how the traditional association of the number with the moon for example might be referenced by the lunar type epauletts of the charioteer.

There are of couse many variations of numerology, often contradictory and confusing. When considering the TdM sequence, which is the basis of most subsequent decks, i try and use numerological references relevant to the period of its emergence, such as Agrippa for example. Also I use the 'majors' as the tarots own 'internal' reference system of number symbolism for aid in interpreting the numbers of the 'minors'; which I think is particular useful when using decks with 'non-illustrated' minors such as the TdM.

Kwaw
ps: discussion on a possible connection between the charioteer and minerva can be found in posts 48,49, 50 and 56 by kenji, jmd, helvetica and myself in the following thread on the cardinal virtue of wisdom here:
http://www.tarotforum.net/showthread.php?t=24836&page=5&pp=10

Thanks Kwaw

Will look into it.

Bec

22=1+7+7+7 or 22=2+4+7+7+2?

I don't know numerology or gematria at all and just thought of the major arcana's numbers as sequencing. Even so, there's a question that kept me up one night about the numbering sequence.
The question arises from both Pollack and Greer's division of the major arcana into 1 (the Fool) +7+7+7, which to them seems to be the only way to subdivide the majors. It didn't look natural at all to me.
I found that I get interesting pairs of opposites by partitioning 22=2+4+7+7+2. The Fool and Magician are apparent opposites, deserving a subset to themselves. (Zero-and-one, zero-and-infinity, and dumb-and-smart.)
Then the physical plane masculine-feminine pairing, (III-IV) surrounded by the spiritual male-female (II and V) forms a second subset.
The third subset consists of the Hermit (IX) surrounded by three pairs of opposing world-views, game of skill (VIII) and game of chance (X), might-makes-right (VII) and no-it-doesn't (XI), tantra (VI) and asceticism (XII).
Following the asocial Hermit's subset is the Tower subset. It's a group of seven, six of which surround a social movement gone bad (interpreting the Tower (XVI) as the Tower of Babel after chaos hit). Reach for the Star (XVII), the Moon (XVIII), or the life-giving Sun (XIX), and you're eventually tripped up by the Devil (XV), Temperance (XIV), and Death (XIII), respectively.
In the last subset, Judgement (XX), where the dead rise and divine justice prevails, opposes The World (XXI), where everyone is mortal and the wicked prosper, at least on occasion.
... makes sense to me, at least. YMMV.

interesting

The idea seems interesting, but Pollack's idea makes more sense to me. Amazing how diverse interpretations can be culled from the same 22 card sequence. Peace and blessings...................Michael